Windows has ruled the desktop for more than a decade, actually it is about 15 years. It was 1992 that Microsoft released Windows 3.11, and that very much was the turning point, while 3.11 looked just like its predecessor, under the hood it contained something very unique. For the first time it was cheap and easy to network computers. Businesses flocked to Windows, the ability to network resources was a huge time and money saver. Several computers could now share an expensive resource like a printer, better still, the networked computers could share that most valuable of assets, data.
It was with Windows 3.11 and the subsequent release of Windows 95 that signaled the demise of Novel. Novel had ruled the networking world but came at a steep price, a price that did not work for many smaller organizations, plus it required a good deal of technical ability to maintain it.
Fat, dumb, and happy our friends at Microsoft have continued to release ever ‘better’ versions of Windows. Are they better though? Windows 98 was certainly feature rich and user friendly, but the rest of the releases merely saw the introduction of ‘bloatware’. The most horrific example being Vista. This latest monstrosity requires huge hardware commitments while offering little to the user in return.
Linux, at first glance seems like the knight in shining armor. There are many different varieties, it offers the elegance of Windows, and best of all, many of the distributions are free.
I got extremely frustrated with Windows and decided to move to Linux. My weapon of choice was Linspire, for the most part I am pretty happy with this distribution. Alas Linspire looks like it is going the way of the Dodo bird, the company has essentially liquidated its assets and fired all of the employees.
My wife Jan and I have just relocated from Calgary to the middle of Mississippi, our ‘stuff’ is somewhere in between. Having no computers was not an option, we need some sort of access. My solution, which no doubt most of you will scoff at, was to take two ancient laptops along. Screaming fast 300mhz Toshiba Portege 3110CT’s to be exact. These critters are very lightweight, but the downside is that they have no CD ROM in them, and try as I might, I could not find an external drive that would work with them.
My solution to loading an Operating System was Linux, I found a distribution of Debian that could be loaded over the Internet. Armed with two diskettes (Root and Boot), loading Linux was a cakewalk.
So here we are in the wilds of Mississippi and I am mightily ticked off. I am no neophyte to the world of computers, I have over 30 years of experience in the game. Linux however is getting the better of me. I would really like to install Firefox as my browser, but installing software on Linux seems to require an act of Congress. I hate to praise Windows, but I have to. Installing Firefox, or any other program for that matter involves clicking on the download icon and talking along with the instructions. Generally it involves clicking the ‘yes’ button and rebooting the computer dozens of times, but it is easy and relatively fool proof.
Installing software on Linux is a whole different beast. You have to download some funky file that is Tar’d or Gzipped, that bit is easy. Then the problems start. Problem number one is finding the file. After much aggravation I finally located it. I clicked on it and something called File Roller started up, my guess is that this is some sort of Unzip program. Problem number two was finding where the unzipped version was. After much messing around I found it.
OK, I am off to the races now! Wrong! The unzipped file has no program called Install that you can click on. Oh well, I don’t scare easy, so it was off to Google to find the install instructions. This is where my frustration level went up about 5 gazzilion points. Linux help always assumes that you have a PHD in Linux. Well folks, I do not. After playing ‘Whack the Mole’ on the Firefox site for half an hour I finally found some instructions that I thought I could follow.
It was with great anticipation that I typed in some cryptic command, I sat back and watched the strange messages fly by. My happiness was short lived, apparently I have to install some libraries. Needless to say, I have absolutely no clue how to do this. The whole thing is Greek to me.
This is why Linux is not making inroads into the Windows community. I don’t class myself as being an expert with computers, but on the other hand I do think that I am reasonably intelligent. If I can not install something as fundamental as a browser the average man in the street has no chance.
If the Linux community want to woo the Windows user base they really need to spend some time and effort on the usability aspects.
Simon Barrett – Grumpy In Mississippi
78 users commented in " Why Linux Is Not King Of The Operating Systems "
Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackAh dude. APT-GET INSTALL ICEWEASEL. That’s for debian’s ‘firefox’. + apt-get install + apt-get update + apt-get dist-upgrade beats anything you find in windows. I am sorry to tell you but…. making / building from scratch is old school. Yum, urpmi, apt, etc. are all great package managers that UPDATE MOST IF NOT ALL of your software VIA ONE MANAGER.
hahaha That was my whole point! I don’t want to mess with Apt-get, Gunzip, ./makes, ./installs or any of it.
Until the Linux world dumbs down the system management world it will never gain wide acceptance.
Simon
“You_are_mistaken” is absolutely right. If you have installed Debian, you have access to many tens of theousands of software apps in the Debian repositories. A really easy and convenient way of downloading and installing them is to use Synaptic – a GUI that helps to download and install apps with a couple of mouse clicks.
Open a console and type su then press enter.
You will be asked for your root password so type that and enter.
Then type
apt-get update && apt-get install synaptic
That will download and install synaptic which you should then find on the Start menu under “Internet” or “System” subheadings.
Simply launch that and you have a gui to browse and download tons of stuff – Iceweasel (browser) icedove (email) VLC (video player) Amarok (mp3 player) etc etc.
For real? you would rather compile from source than type in an apt-get command? by they way the specific distro you installed is as old as the dinosaurs. you can’t judge linux as a whole from one distro made about 800 years ago. I use Ubuntu 8.04 guess what firefox is preinstalled. for new programs go to the convenient add/remove programs tab and watch as thousands of programs are organised neatly into categories that you can download till your heart’s delight. I realize this was an old machine you were using so this probably would not help you. but seriously all that searching and not one post had the apt-get command you were looking for. I call shenanigan’s you would rather fumble around in command line for hours than type in one command that will auto install the whole thing for you? what is the real purpose of this article? go try it for real and then see if you like it if you don’t fine. It’s not for everyone. But don’t wright this stuff that makes absolutely no sense and then expect people to believe you. By the way prepare for a hundred people all telling you how to do this the right way. In my experience everyone in the community is very helpful and ready to point you in the right direction.
“I am no neophyte to the world of computers, I have over 30 years of experience in the game. Linux however is getting the better of me.”
This is a common first impression. People looking at Linux, with years of experience in Windows operating systems, expect to be instant experts in Linux. They forget how long it took them to gain proficiency with Windows, and they blame Linux when they have difficulties.
Try the Ubuntu operating system, which is based on Debain though built to for ease of use. There are so many packages that are pre-configured in the Ubuntu Add-Remove Programs application, that you should never need to try installing from scratch.
You should have used a consumer friendly distribution like Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS, or OpenSuse. All of the usually GUI tools are included with these distros for those that are less comfortable with the command line.
Also why didn’t you just buy a book on how to use Debian for beginners. Nobody sits down and has of the information available on how to use Windows unless you have some apparatus to download the info directly into your cranium à la Matrix.
I dont know if you have heard of another linux distro – Ubuntu. It is said to be the most newbie friendly. I have started using it 3 years ago and now all our computers at home are running ubuntu. By the way, I am not a computer geek either.
You my friend, are either not running Debian, or you have not read even the most rudimentary of instructions on how to install apps. You are doing it wrong!
Oh and i know that firefox (maybe Iceweasel in this case) is in a DEB package. Debian will auto install these as well if you want to do it the hard way. Compile from source is pretty much dead. I have been using linux for over a year now and have installed many apps never once compiled and very rarely have even had to use a DEB package.
this is what ive used and it works very well
http://www.pclinuxos.com/index.php?option=com_ionfiles&Itemid=28
simon is right. This is why linux is not king. period. I have a dialup connection to the internet. I loaded debian. First it wanted to update itself. Then i found that the suggested updates were 200+ megabytes.
I have a cdma phone. I googled the internet for a linux driver. It said I should use apt-get. How can I use apt-get for a driver, if I cannot connect to the internet to download the driver.
As a retired technical writer, I have to say that linux is basically geeksville. I enjoy playing around with it from time to time, but when I absulutely positively need some lunux app, I usually compile and run it under cygwin.
Then I go back to Bill.
Don’t want to, but…
I fail to see what’s so hard about:
apt-get update && apt-get install synaptic
or:
tar -xzvf bla
cd bla
./configure
make
make install
or:
rpm -Uvh bla
Synaptic is even easier: click, load, run. You can even install multiple applications at once. If that still isn’t enough, take a fat distribution like SuSE, Mandriva or Fedora and use the 2500+ apps on disk exclusively. That’s really click and run. If you even gain the intelligence to add a repository you can – gash! – add apps straight from the net.
The basic problem with Windows users is:
(a) They do not acknowledge the knowledge and experience they have acquired with Windows over the years.
(b) Think that Windows is the norm; if it doesn’t look and act like Windows, it can’t be easy.
Unless you acknowledge that you’ll never be able to use Linux successfully. For those who did – for whatever reason – the very idea that Windows was ever easy just baffles them.
.. but all this is an ancient discussion. I don’t know why I’m wasting time on this.
How clueless does one have to be to believe he can go unchallenged by those who know better while trying to fool those who don’t.
Simon said: “I don’t want to mess with Apt-get…”
That’s a shame, because apt-get is what you were looking for. It’s Debian Linux’s “install” button: apt-get magically installs your chosen package and any dependencies required (those libraries you didn’t have?).
It will make your life unbelievably easier than trying to install from source or tar or gzip files.
And Ubuntu takes it one step further with the Synaptic GUI. Just click to select the packages you want to install from a list (with descriptions).
Now, granted, this may not be as smooth on a 300 MHz laptop from 5 years ago. In that case, I would forgo the GUI and go with the command line apt-get.
linux is not windows. So you install things in a different way.
I had my time learning to install stuff on MacOSX. That’s not click’n’press “yes” 10 times.
Why? ’cause it’s NOT WINDOWS either.
If you ARE NOT AN EXPERIENCED LINUX USER, you use Synaptics, or the apt-get command, if you dare to use the console.
If you miss the click’n’run experience, download a DEB package from get-deb.com and double click on it.
Only experienced users should COMPILE programs from source (*.tar.gz)
For a really old laptop, DSL (Damn Small Linux) works great, and it includes a simple browse and click program that will download AND INSTALL various programs like Firefox, …..
rt*m
How anyone could migrate to an operating system without doing any very basic homework is beyond me.
Installing applications with modern Linux distributions is easier than with windows, and 5 minutes on any forum would have set you straight.
“I have a cdma phone. I googled the internet for a linux driver. It said I should use apt-get. How can I use apt-get for a driver, if I cannot connect to the internet to download the driver.”
I hope you were on another PC when you googled this or else this would make no sense for obvious reasons. If you have ever tried to get one of these type of phones to work on Windows then no doubt you have to intsall a driver for it. Granted maybe you are one of those lucky ones that XP or Vista reconizes. (I work with these type of phones all day for a IT staff and have not ran inot one that auto installed the driver) but lets say you have to install the driver. You would have ran into the same thing. I recently put XP on a dell from 3 years ago and it didn’t recognize the NIC. Now that was a pain to find a way to work around to get the driver. Bottom line these is a common problem on Windows systems as well as GNU/Linux. Your comment is invalidated.
I have switched to Debian Lenny and I have not had any problems installing what I want. I did get a package that is in beta and trying to get it to install. I am working with the programmer of this package for help and he has been great help. I have installed new programs using Synaptic with out issues. I have installed what ever I wanted to install and if other packages are needed it will install these as well. I have also used apt and it is very easy to install packages and to remove them as well. People are usually great and willing to help.
You have all proven his point. Which is a shame really.
greetings,
Simon, why don’t you write an article about installing Windows on your OLD laptop…i would love to read that article…seems like you had your OLD laptop working with Linux…Please try this and write a follow up article and let us know how it went…Please!!!!!
Why in the world would anyone give the author any credit for anything when he can’t even correctly spell the name of the company that was once one of the biggest network-operating-system on the planet?
Not incorrectly once, mind you. Twice. In the same paragraph.
The word is Novell.
So now you’re going to install windows on the machines?
Let me know how *that* went. That would make an interesting blog entry.LOL
30 years of experience with word processors i reckon eh?
“You have all proven his point. Which is a shame really.”
Somehow everyone here helping him with his problem is provinig his point as to “Why Linux is not the King of Operating Systems.” I don’t really know how that works. My point in the things I have said is that this is clearly a non-point article. There is plenty of help. To say that you want to install something and pridefully refuse to use apt-get in Linux is akin to refuse to double click on the *.exe in Windows. The fact is that there is no point here. He is trying to say that in searching for a solution to his problem he found that the solutions were to difficult (Geek is the term I believe was used)when people told him how to do it he stubbornly said
“I don’t want to mess with Apt-get, Gunzip, ./makes, ./installs or any of it.”
If we looked at this from the reverse angle (a GNU/Linux user trying out Windows) it would be like him saying. “I don’t want to mess with executables or auto run cd’s.”
Clearly that makes no sense.
“You have all proven his point. Which is a shame really.”
What point if I might ask. This F Article has no has no point at all.
Abe said,in September 16th, 2008 at 1:54 pm “You have all proven his point. Which is a shame really.”
What point if I might ask. This F Article has no has no point at all.
Well Said Abe.
I have been watching these comments with great interest. I love them. Clearly there are two different camps, the Linux people, and the regular folks.
I was not trying to rile anyone up with my article, I am merely stating my opinion, and that is based on my experience.
I like Linux, I have used it for months on my regular PC. My needs are simplistic, Web Browser, Word Proccesor, Text Editor, and thats about it.
My agrevation is in the system management.
Trust me, I am no fan of Microsoft, Microsoft used to just Nickel and Dime you to death, these days they want real money!
At $200 a copy for Windows and (wild guess) $300 a copy for office, and six computers…… Well my high school math grts me to $3k in no time at all.
I like Linux, and maybe that is the point you are missing. I like Linux a lot, it is feature rich, and for the most part it is free. Free is my favorite price.
But, and it is a huge BUT, if I can not get it to do what I need, then it is worthless. I might as well go back to Microsoft.
Several commenters have given me advice about Apt-get, Gunzip, etc. You are missing then point. I don’t want to play in that sand box. And if you take a step back for a moment you will understand why the Windows users are staying with Windows.
Don’t get me wrong, if you are happy Grepping, gunzipping etc, I am happy for you. More power to you.
I just want a computer that works. My main goal is reviews and interviews, it matters not one iota to me if it is Windows, Linux, Mac, or Joe’s Operating System that he wrote in two days in his basement.
I just don’t want to be bothered reading a damn book about it. I want a button that says Install, and away I go. Until Linux reaches that point it will go nowhere.
Simon
and the point is that there is a button … it’s called synaptic, and if you’d done ANY research at all you’d have found that out in a couple of minutes.
Instead, you blunder around and badmouth the system, instead of just asking one obvious question.
“Several commenters have given me advice about Apt-get, Gunzip, etc. You are missing then point. I don’t want to play in that sand box. And if you take a step back for a moment you will understand why the Windows users are staying with Windows.”
Ok so I was willing to chalk this up to ignorance (you don’t know any better)
I think you have made it plain to everyone you are stupid (you see the truth in fromt of you and refuse to accept it)
I like the jibe about Linux people and regular people. You get a gold star for that one. Kudos on the implication that people who prefer Linux are not the regular guys. haha
Anyway if you must have your executable here it is http://packages.debian.org/etch/iceweasel
Granted it is not firefox this is iceweasel. Debian was tired of firefox and made thier own version. I don’t know why but they also have firefox DEB’s you can download too.
Again you must understand that to dismiss a tool such as apt-get is to dismiss the solution to your problem. It is easy to say that you dont want to do something a certain wat and that you didn’t get the answer you wanted. I don’t want to use the executable so I am going to use command prompt to install everything. Fine go ahead but if you want to know how to do something and the advice is double click the *.exe then i am not going to refuse to do it. That would be stupid (please see the above comment on what that means)
GNU/LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS
there is a different way do do things. You don’t do stuff the same way with MAC either and many people find it easy to use. if you dont know how learn. If you refuse to learn that is your fault not the designer.
Justin
Windows user for 15+ years, willing to learn something new to expand my knowledge have fun and find a new way of doing things …. for free mind you.
Simon, possibly a different approach is required with Linux. With 100s of different distributions, you’ll find something that works with your older laptop. (I’ve had quite a bit of success with Puppy Linux on older hardware.) No, this not the same as Windows, where you hit install button and off it goes. But you still have to get the right version of Windows to work with your laptop.
“Until the Linux world dumbs down the system management world it will never gain wide acceptance.”
Dude. This has been done. All the major modern distros use GUI package managers. No more CLI for installations. Point, click and its all done for you, including dependencies. How on earth did you not know this? If you had chosen Ubuntu or Fedora or SUSE or Mandriva or Mepis or you would have found what you were looking for. Even lightweight distros for your old hardware such as Xubuntu, Slax or Puppy feature GUI package management.
The problem is that you chose Linspire, presumably because you thought it would be Windows-like. You did no research and so come off as clueless to anyone with even a little experience using GNU/Linux in 2008.
Now then. The REAL reason Linux is not the King of Operating Systems? No marketing department.
I have to agree….Linux HAS reached that point. It is very easy to install apps in using either Synaptic, RPM, YUM, or any other package manager. A few key points that need to be mentioned though.
1.) The “average user” has never had to install a thing. If you buy a Windows machine, it comes pre-packaged with everything they think you will need to go on your happy way. If there is something you want that is not there and you install it, there is a good chance it will break the system. If you have ever tried this, you have seen this.
2.) Installing Windows is not easy. However neither is installing Linux. But again, point number 1 covers that. So, if you are an “average user”, both would seem equally daunting.
3.) Everything I have ever tried to do on Linux, I have found a way to do on Linux. Cheaply (more times than not, freely) whereas the Windows counterpart is not so cheap.
4.) There are more options with Linux. PERIOD. More ways to do the same thing and…dare I say…better ways to do the same thing…as windows.
It is very irritating when some one with a supposed technical background berates Linux on an issue that has not BEEN an issue for a very long time. Unless you are trying to something far outside the realm of what the “average user” would need, there is no need to go to the command line. And on the flip side, if you really want to do something outside of that realm on windows…well…did ya ever hear of Linux???
Seriously mate.. If you’re not even going to consider tools like aptitude and apt-get you’re better off sticking with Windows.
You won’t be able to use Linux or any operating system properly without having to spend at least a minimum of effort on getting to know the system and how to manage it.
It’s not a waffle iron afterall.. it’s a complex piece of machinery and this simple fact is something that people just don’t seem to realise.
Say you had only ever known Linux or OSX and you’d just switched to Windows. You’d be frustrated with Windows then because you wouldn’t know anything about how to use it!
Spending at least a little time on reading up on how to manage a Linux system would be very rewarding for you in my opinion because it is a very stable system that just keeps on going once you know how to manage it.
Apt-get is a great command line utility that will let you install synaptic, as others have written above.
synaptic is a gui front end for apt that will let you install thousands of software titles by pointing and clicking. synaptic and apt-get also automagically take care of all dependencies for you, so you never end up in something like the old ‘DLL Hell’ as can happen in the Windows world.
The apt family will warn you if you have dependency conflicts before making changes.
You can also order a complete set of debian CD’s or a DVD relatively cheaply. If you google ‘adding cd to apt sources’ you will see that you can run apt-get or synaptic completely off-line. It will prompt you if you have to put a cd or a dvd in to get a package off of.
Using synaptic to install and remove software is amazingly easy. You no longer have to search multiple vendor websites. And since all packages are cryptographically signed you don’t have to live in fear that the driver of software package you install is from some third party hacker trying to ‘own’ your machine.
You can use synaptic’s search button to look for software by keywords, if you don’t know an app name.
People using Linux have’nt had to compile software since the days when Windows 95 came out. They can if they choose to, but it is rare that any Linux user that is not a developer has to ever compile.
Even though almost all Linux software comes as pre-compiled binaries (just like Windows) Apt-get, at the command line, can also take care of compile for you! If you read the documentation that comes installed on your system you will see that ‘build-essential’ makes apt-get compile software from source with all dependencies taken care of automagically! You will probably never have to do it, but if you want it it is automated for you!
Running Linux is like learning to drive stick if you only know automatic transmissions. You will have to be willing to do things a little different. If you like the way Windows works for you, I would suggest that you stick with it. Use what works best for you, thats what make choice so great.
If you are going to try Linux, please realize that you will have to learn a few new things or you will just spend your time grinding your gears and going nowhere.
Good luck and have fun!
“I like Linux, I have used it for months on my regular PC. My needs are simplistic, Web Browser, Word Proccesor, Text Editor, and thats about it.”
Ahem, …. if you have used it for months, surely you know how to install things by now. If not then I would like to add that most major distro’s (Debian included) have executables to install things. Debian has *.deb files. So does Ubuntu. Fedora has one it uses I forget what it is called.
Ubuntu is what I use it comes preinstalled with everything you listed above that is required.
If you don’t like doing it the way that is required in the distro of your choice then ok i get that … if you prefer windows. Great i get that. But if all you really require are those things you listed then getting them for free would for me outway the inconvenience of a simple apt-get command. Especially when no command is required on the majority of main stream distros.
You are a die hard Windows user. Ok that is fine many are. Just say it and stop pretending.
I will get my apps for free get no blue screens and never have to formatt my hard drive due to a virus. To me it is worth learning a new way of thinking and opening my mind to a new way of computing.
I call troll on this post. Either that, or your ’30 years experience with computers’ means that you’re incapable of asking other people for help on a technical issue.
Or maybe you haven’t heard of this search engine called ‘google’ yet.
There’s at least two dozen Linux forums out there where you could ask, and it would take a lot less effort than writing a whole blogpost to complain about it.
Or you could look at any of the myriad of linux tutorials who will tell you that mainstream linux distros abandoned the tarball installation concept more than 5 years ago.
Any modern distro has a package manager, you just point and click at what you want installed. It’s actually much faster, much easier, and more secure than Windows.
just install Ubuntu 8.04. your tune will soon change.
or better yet, for older machines, Xubuntu 8.04
I agree with TG.
This seems to be a troll post for sure. You have heard the evidence many presented it better than I can. I am by no means a Linux expert and I have found it easy to use. I even had trouble installing a wireless network adapter and never did figure it out. Reported it to Ubuntu as a possible bug. Two weeks later I download my updates and I restart my PC and it works. They fixed it wow! when is that last time windows did that for you huh?
anyway i will no longer dignify the “author” with a post. He is a troll and the worst kind one who obvously knows his way around linux and is just bashing it. It is obvious and i am done. this was a welcome diversion while at work and i think that this is the type of attitude that unfortunately many who are honestly curious about something new are stunted by. If you have bothered to read this far down in the post then listen to this. Try Linux for yourself if you have not. It is easy and there is plenty of help online if you need it. Thanks and have fun with computing thats what they were made for.
Simon, I must agree with you. I recently had a similiar situation.
The story goes like this:
I was working from my cottage a few weekends ago. I was developing a web cart for a local retailer/manufacturer in the comfy and secluded confines of Soft Lake when my hard drive crashed. My deadline was the following day; and while I had a pretty beefy desktop machine at home, it was six hours away. I was technologically stranded from civiliation. I felt like I was in the stone age and some one stole my hammer and as a result I could no longer exchange services for food and shelter!
“Wait!”, the voice in my head was telling me to pause and be resourceful, no need to panic.
“That’s right!”, the voice in my head exclaimed as it saved the day yet again. There was an old Pentium machine that has sat in my closet collecting dust and humidity from the lake air for years. I decided to give the old lady a try at booting up and whadya know? All 266 mHz came screaming at me from nowhere!
I was amazed. I thought for sure that old lady was dead and that if she wasn’t, well, alarming her in that fashion on a quiet Saturday night would certainly send her CPU into cardiac arrest. But alas, she was still kicking as I saw my desktop appear. I couldn’t help but ponder how to access the internet though. First thing I noticed was an AOL icon, oh the nostalgia. My problem was that the system had no ethernet adapter, just a lowly modem. This would make work difficult, but plausible. Not being timid of a little hard work and long waits for FTP tranfers from the trusty DOS command line i gave my ISP a call. I gave them my situation and asked if they had any dial-up connectivity and BAM, I was online at a blistering 14.4k per second.
This is where, unfortunately, things followed the geese flying over the lake south.
I thought I had an FTP account with the WebHost. Turns out that the account was attached to some sort of web based frontend client that was actually authenticating my session and using a separate account to actually connect to the FTP server. No big deal. The frontend is flash based; sure it it’ll take a while to download, but hey I’d be hammering.
Hours later the download completed. I ran it and I was stopped dead in my tracks. “This version of Adobe Flash is not compatible with your OS.” “It’s Windows!” the voice in my head cried. Granted, it’s Windows 95, but it’s Windows! Alas, the work didn’t get done. As a result I lost the contract, my wife and kids-they all left me, my dog pissed on my leg, the postman avoids the house, the bank foreclosed on my cottage, the bar on the corner of the street I literally live on won’t sell me a beer, the school bus driver points and laughs along with all the kids when she drives by, and my pants haven’t been washed in 18 days.
What’s the moral of the story?
I could say that this situation is the reason Microsoft sucks on lemons. But instead, I’ll just say that if I’m ever going to give Microsoft another legitimate try and blog about the experience later, I’ll make sure I give it a fair shot before I state the reasons it’s a bloated, insecure, bug riddled, POS.
dude… you can compile a program from source on Windows too… I have done it. That article is the stupidest thing I have ever read.
For average Joe -> Add/Remove or even Synaptic Package Manager on ubuntu
For less average Joe -> apt-get
For all Debian or derivative (like ubuntu) users : .deb files
For developers/hackers/nerds : Compile from source
There are 5 possibilities listed here, you chose the wrong one.
I agree with you. People that say something like apt-get is so easy, should stop and think. The whole premise behind open source is that you can make things any way you want them. So why hasn’t somebody just put an install script around apt-get or something so you can just say “install firefox” and it finds it and installs it for you? Or why isn’t the firefox package you download wrapped in an install script so it comes as firefox-install.sh, and you could just run it to install? How hard would that be for any given distro to do? There are some distros that come pretty close I believe.
And don’t get me started on dependencies! I once gave up an install of a simple game after running into FIVE levels of dependencies! That’s insane! If it needs libraries, and they need libraries and they need libraries, ad nauseum, then package them all together! Why should anyone have to go on a treasure hunt for stuff needed by something you wrote? Put it in the package! It’s open source, right?
Oh I agree with you on one point though : help sites on Linux tend to assume that you are familiar with the command line and stuff, which they should avoid. The problem is that a lot of documentation out there is kinda old :/.
Forester1, you say that because you tried a gentoo (LFS = Linux From Scratch = for big nerds) or what ?
Installing on ubuntu (or Mandriva or OpenSuse..) is trivial : search your program (in a google fashion) , click on install, done.
I am not a troll. I am just a user. And to put this into perspective I am running Debian because it was the only distro that I could find that installed (easily) over the Internet.
I have no CD Rom, I have an external Floppy Drive and that is it!
Some of you seem to think that my article was written just to agrivate you. That is not the case. I wrote it out of frustration. Yes I could read a 1000 page book. Yes I could likely track down a Linux guru. But that is not the point. My point is that for Linux to get accepted by us ‘mere mortals’ it has to be friendly. It has to be something that we can use.
Grepping, Gunzipping, cd’ing to strange directories is not user friendly. Hitting a button saying Install works just fine. Thats my kind of system!
Wow, have you read any of this? You don’t need any of that to use what works in Debian. You don’t need to read a 1000 page book to install Firefox and apt-get goes to a repository it is not strange at all you know exactly were it is going and in most cases installs in a perfectly logical place. YOU KNOW HOW TO USE DEBIAN. you are acting like it is difficult it is not. I label you troll.
To deny the simple logic of these posts is ludicrous. Trust me I am a “mere mortal” it is easy. You are taking a bigoted view of this and you say you speak from experience. Then why is it to hard for you to click the DEB package for an install. That is exactly what you asked for. it is there you have it. Five minutes on Google will find it for you. STOP THIS RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT IT IS UNFOUNDED AND COMPLETE RUBBISH.
Simon, you appear to be missing the point of what these people are saying. Of all the simple point-and-click ways to install software on Debian systems you chose the most difficult, and then make the bold statement that it is too hard.
Try this method:
1. Run “Synaptic Package Manager” from the “Desktop -> Administration” menu
2. Look in the list for the program you want, or search for it’s name or description.
3. Select it (i.e. put a check in the box)
4. Click Apply
You’re done. All you have to do now is wait for it to automatically download the program, install it, and add it to your menu.
You can do the same thing just as easily from the command line using apt-get, but you don’t need to if you’re not comfortable with it.
Frankly, I can’t see why you’d want to do things the Windows way – it’s overcomplicated and fraught with compatibility issues.
I agree with this article that installing programs is linux’s greatest weakness in it becoming a mass operating system like windows. That’s why I think PC-BSD with its single file (windows like) pbi packages (which install just like a windows .exe program file) make it a model for where user friendly linux distros need to go.
Simon says: (lol)
/*I am no neophyte to the world of computers, I have over 30 years of experience in the game. Linux however is getting the better of me.*/
Dude, there was a lot of typing on command lines back then….apt-get should be that difficult for you…….
You are missing the whole point and so are many other people. Linux is not the operating system for the average Joe. It is for technical purposes not for end user purpose. The fact that technical users want to also do basic end user computing is just the sprinkle on the cake.
“I am not a troll. I am just a user. And to put this into perspective I am running Debian because it was the only distro that I could find that installed (easily) over the Internet.
I have no CD Rom, I have an external Floppy Drive and that is it!”
Give Window a chance. Follow 4 easy steps:
Step 1: Please, do find a Windows “distro” to install (easily) over the Internet on this beast without CD Rom and external Floppy Drive.
Step 2: Then, please, install it.
Step 3: Then, please, find Install button in it.
Step 4: Then, please, use Install button to install any (whichever you wish) program.
Then, please, tell us if you’ve encountered “huge BUT” again (if possible, tell us in which step it was encountered). Thank you.
😉 Got the point?
“Some of you seem to think that my article was written just to agrivate you. That is not the case. I wrote it out of frustration. Yes I could read a 1000 page”
Simon whenever you come across a new “something” it pays to read up something about it.
There is little point in bitching about your new toy just because you don’t know how to operate it, and expect it to be exactly the same as your old toy.
Are you saying that you have a Debian Gnome install and it did not include IceWeasel?
In one of the comments Simon Barrett wrote:
“I don’t want to mess with Apt-get, Gunzip, ./makes, ./installs or any of it.”
Why don’t you simply use Synaptic to install Iceweasel?
@TrollPatrol: Good point. Hard to find a Windows solution that meets your needs, for a 300 MHz laptop with no CD-ROM drive. Where is this guy’s essay on his trouble with installing Windows Vista?
@zzsimonb: There’s a Linux club in Jackson Mississippi that meets twice a month. Swing by so they can bop you on the head with a clue-stick.
Simon,
This is quickly getting in the category “Windows users are whiners”.
Linux != Windows
Windows != Userfriendly
Linux is no Windows clone. Part of the way Windows installs software is the source of many of the security problems Windows is coping with. Want proof? The newest, “safest” version of Windows has UAC. Most people don’t like it. Most people turn it off. Linux has no such problems, consequence is that there are different ways to install software. If you are really, really unable/unwilling to cope with that, forking out $250 is your only option.
If not, try to Synaptic for a change if you want to stick with Debian. Or try another distribution, maybe you find Yast (SuSE) easier, for example.
But if (Userfriendly == Windows) renders TRUE for you, for eternity, stick with it. Because Linux is not a Windows clone, nor will it ever be.
Do you know how to install a program in Windows by the commandline? Been able to use the CLI with the GUI is a great computer ability on every operating system. And it unlocks some inner secrets. Then you can do a lot more efficiently than ever before. Isn’t it strange that CLI haven’t disappered on Windows?
Good luck with your Linux experience. Myself it took me about 3 years to get some basic understanding (same as with Windows). Experience don’t come freely.
Remember that Linux is like a teenager on the desktop and is directly related to great stable grandfather UNIX on the servers. Windows is getting middelaged, heavy and slow. It’s wrongdoing is that it wouldn’t learn from father UNIX.
In window you can install any thing without internet connection (off-line). For Synaptic we need internet connection. May some body don’t have internet connection then this Synaptic is not that much helpfull. So for offline installation linux should have mechanisum along with some mouse click like window installtion.
OK, my wife has only used Linux. When she bought a new laptop she thought she would try windows. (no choice, had to pay the M$ tax)
When it came to adding some new software, she asked “where is synaptic?”. When I told her how she had to install software on windows she said “windows is rubbish, put Linux on”
Linux advocates are M$ best friends. Seriously, are you hyper critical linux fans secretly M$ employees? For every person you flame in public 100 walk away. Just take the high ground dudes. Be nice to everyone and more people will use the OS you love and then eventually it will dominate the world. At the mo you are just helping M$ keep on trucking. Hows this – “Simon, I am sorry your linux experience wasn’t what you expected. However, help is at hand.” – At least you MIGHT win him over – which is more than you’ll get telling him he’s retarded, a loser, a troll etc… Come on guys, show some though… for a change…
Linux is big fun. For a Win user, it does take a different approach to many things.
Case in point: Creative Zen MP3 player. Under many distros, recognized (lsusb), but NEVER is “detected” by the OS, and thus I never see a program open up to allow me to work with it. Sure, GNomad sees if AFTER I fire it up, Amarok can if I enable WTP devices, etc.
I’m currently using PCLos Gnome and really like it. Banshee is the default player, and I also like it. But, it will not see the player. There’s a new version on the Banshee site, and some discussion about no longer supporting njb devices out of the box, etc. I’m fairly new to this distro, and am not sure about what repository to add…and where to do it, so I downloaded the new banshee tar.gz, read the install instructions, off to the command line, and if failed because of a missing GDK lib. I fervently searched the installer for references to the lib, even installed a libmtp option that wasn’t installed. Briefly back to the website…and then surrender.
Please. While challenging and mildly entertaining, this can’t be accepted as a normal state of affairs.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POST IS RELATED TO A CASUAL PC USER WHO WANTS TO SWITCH FROM WINDOWS TO LINUX. THEY CANNOT SURVIVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS WITHOUT MUCH MORE EFFORT THAN THEY ARE WILLING TO PUT OUT.
My 2 cents.
I think Simon would have been well served if he had a “Install New Software” icon on his desktop which runs Synaptic.
“My new truck is not very good.”
“Why?”
“It is hard to refuel. I had to make diesel from corn, and it was a pain in the butt.”
“But you could have gone to a gas station…”
“I don’t want to mess with complex stuff like that.”
Before bashing linux, take some time to at least review a short FAQ or book. In that case, you’d be hard pressed to hurt yourself. And maybe even know some linux or generic unix firms like Sun and Redhat. Or ancient history like Netware.
However, pray tell, who’s *Novel* – never heard of it, and certainly never in scientific or commercial computing, incl. office computing.
Research might hurt early on, skipping it WILL HURT later. Enjoy the pain.
cu
Peter
sarcastic boy, this is a wonderful post.
“Simon, I am sorry your linux experience wasn’t what you expected. However, help is at hand.”
Merchy, maybe you are right. Simon I apolozize my condemnation of you was hasty. I challenge you to try a Distro of Linux on a modern machine and see if you feel diferently. I would recommend Ubuntu or SUSE. They are easy to use. Ubuntu has many ways to install software that you might prefer. I would love to see another evaluation base on a modern distro on a modern machine. I was a windows fan bot at one time 2000 pro was amazing. I would still use it if it was supported. But for me any way GNU/Linux has taken its place. this is only within the last year. I would still label myself new to Linux but i can get around it pretty well. When i look back on it Windows took just as long for me to learn. Just try it for real. I think you had a bad experience with an old machine. I had a similar experience when i tried it for the first time. I am loveing it now. Good Luck and i would love to see another article about a honest look at an OS that many regular people are using.
John C Dvorak famously makes a living from baiting Mac fan boys perhaps this guy is trying to the same with us Linux users?
He refuses to take good advice or realise that Linux is not Windows and that “playing in that sandbox” (using a package manager) is absolutely the right way to do things in Linux.
Unbelievable really.
PS “I have 30 years experience in IT” != “I know everything there is to know about computers”
I’m sure it has been said a million times, but:
Linux package managment is much better than Windows ever has been, and probably ever will be.
You search, download and install all in the one place.
CLI or with a GUI (synaptic or equivelent) – Installing in Linux far easier than Windows.
Period.
Before decrying Linux, I’d suggest you do a fair comparison. Install Vista on the machines along with the apps you need.
What’s that? Can’t be done without a CD drive? How about that? And Vista won’t run on that hardware? Doggone.
Synaptic and Adept offer greater ease in software install than Windows has ever offered. If you want the same sort of experience as Windows, install the Gdebi package installer and then get your software from the Debian repositories as .deb files. Your experience will then be very Windows-esque. That approach is a bit like trying to clear the flooding after Katrina with a bucket when a high volume pump is available, though.
I’ve had Windows since version 2. I started with Linux somewhere in the 2.4 kernel progression, I forget exactly when it was. While Linux, (or Unix), requires some new learning it is facilitated by one important thing; unlike Windows, the way Linux works makes good logical sense from top to bottom.
I use graphical add/remove and it works fine in deb.
@Sakano: As others have pointed out, Synaptic can be used offline, too. I’m not a Debian/*buntu fan, but… There are plenty of GUI’s to manage software. There are some GUI’s that compile source tarballs for you, offline. Just a small correction, and my 2 cents to this discussion.
Hi All
You all appear to be missing the point Simon’s post, he doesn’t want a simplistic add/remove/update programs clickity click approach to installing applications. Noooooooooooo instead, he wants to have to track and hunt down each individual program(package), then he want’s to download it, you know so it’s there on his own PC, and then finally once the download has completed, then he wants to double click the downloaded program to go through the installation steps, and then of course won’t be truly happy until at somepoint during the install is presented with a kernell32.dll error !!.
Ahh, takes me back …….
Fortunately, for most ‘normal’ people, the nice and easy clickity click approach will suffice.
Cheers
Linux is really easy, if all you ever used is Solaris 😉
I started using linux just as win95 dropped. Never looked back, and never been more happy with my computer.
Linux/Windows arguments are fundamentally flawed. It’s like arguing which is better, a Mercedes or a Freightliner 18 wheeler. They both get you from point a to point b. But the reasons that buy into each product are widely different, hence very different products. So if you don’t want to pump a clutch, shell out the cash for your Mercedes with an auto tranny.
That’s the way I always looked at it. Linux takes some intelligence and investment. Windows is familiar, and approachable by most people. If you don’t want to learn about computers and how to use one, then don’t use one. If you want to learn more and have the time to invest in learning, learn linux.
Solaris is a great OS, but has a significant learning curve. Linux is similar. Windows is a desktop OS. Although you could say windows is making inroads on the server side, until Windows update is actually served by WINDOWS SYSTEMS (akamai uses linux), I’ll never fully trust HPC on Windows.
Compare apples to apples. Linux can function as a desktop os, but don’t kid yourself. It’s always been a server/developement os. It’s not hard to learn, and the documentation for everything has gotten light years better. But as far as being “ready for the desktop”, linux has been good to go for about 5 or 6 years. It still requires that a user invest some time, though. Linux will never be Windows. If windows is all you know, be prepared to learn, search, ask questions, and think. Linux has differing principles.
Hi Simon, you are right and yet also wrong.
The point that you make is that it is difficult for an average (non tech user) to adapt to linux and install software and setup systems etc. The fact is that even in the windows world non IT savvy people can’t easily do it either.
Your major problem would appear to be a lack of research as to your best solution and how to use it?
A big version of Linux is a waste of time on ancient hardware as it would be if you installed Vista.
Puppy Linux booted on a USB stick works great on most older hardware ( it’s based on slakware) and will offer most if not all of the functionality you require in most cases. With Linux the solutions are out there for most users with the appropriate hardware and research and a little study, the same as any OS if you want the best out of it.
Regards Michael
The fact that you’re finding it so hard should be your clue that you’re doing it the hard way. If you’ve gone to all the trouble to make a root and boot floppy and install Debian the hard way, then you’re almost to software installation nirvana.
Just get to a Linux command line. If you’re not logged in as root, then typing su will prompt you for your root password and log you in as root. The sudo command is a better approach, once it’s set up. But you don’t really need it for this.
Then just type the command apt-get update, wait for it to finish, and type the command apt-get install synaptic. The Debian package manager will do all the hard work for you of checking dependencies and automatically installing needed libraries. Once that’s done, the Debian package manager will automatically create a menu item in your GUI for launching Synaptic.
From then on, you can search for software in the huge Debian repository, install it, install system updates and security updates, and even upgrade to newer releases of Debian as they are available, all from Synaptic.
I’m running Debian on the desktop right now that was originally installed on a Packard Bell Pentium 60. I’ve never reinstalled it, I’ve just upgraded in place from one version to the next. My system is now an AMD Athlon 64 4000 with 2 Gig of memory and an SATA drive. I’ve copied the same installation across about 5 hard drives as they either started failing or started filling up and had to be replaced.
It’s not Windows, and in some ways, Windows is better. But in lots of ways, Debian is much, much better.
Simon, your post is mistaken. Sarcastic boy has it right.
If the program is in the free universe it is much easier to install (through apt/smart/yast/yum whatever package manager) than anything equivalent on Windows.
You should google these package managers, install one of them, then print this post out and eat it.
PS: debian is probably not the best place to start though.
Try fedora or opensuse.
And touch base with your LUG.
Welcome to Linux and good luck next time.
I would like to see a message from the author of this article acknowledging that he was wrong and taking most of what he said back. It’s just not fair to bash Linux like this.
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