Jan, thanks for the update and for your love for these innocent children.

When we as a nation remove the “God” factor from our society we set the stage to be viewed as objects. I have read a number of cases where these teens view the victim as a “thing” that got in their way. The more we remove God the higher violence goes. May God help us!!!!

This has nothing to do with removing “God” from our society. This comes from removing self responsibility and self accountability from our society.

What I really find somewhat odd is that LE solved this one so fast and we are coming up on 9 months now that Haleigh Cummings has been missing.

Sad, just sad.

Native, I respect your opinion but to me removing God from our society paved the way to remove “self responsibility and accountability”. If we aren’t responsible to a superior God we self exalt ourselves to having no accountability to a higher power that governs right & wrong.

Native Alien said: “This comes from removing self responsibility and self accountability from our society”.

I completely agree. Today’s narcissistic, self absorbed generation has been allowed to be promiscuous with sex being their #1 goal, music that spews hatred and portrays women as worthless objects or possessions. No wonder they have no values or morals. What will happen to society if this generation keeps spiraling down the same path?

I am curious to know if this fifteen year old has prob with mental illness dont know what could cause her to snap and kill a child unless it was a bully that got to rough i dont know either way elizabeth deserves justice and i hope it is served. same case with all the kids that are deceased or missing or being sold for sex it is something new every day but yeah it would be great if they were home for holidays

Disagree w/those who are making comments about “God” and “video games”…don’t think that is the root of our problems. The major contributing factor is society as a whole putting their noses into the family environment when it shouldn’t and taking away the ability for parents to discipline their children for wrongdoing. Look, I’m not condoning “abusing” your children, but there is a difference between “abuse” and “discipline.” I was disciplined, not abused. I knew what would be tolerated and didn’t cross the line. I didn’t attend church either, but I never would have dreamed of disrespecting another or stealing, and murder…that was never even a thought. So few kids today seem to know what respect is, but society has made it so they don’t have to abide by even the simplest of household rules…why? They don’t have to. As for putting “God” into the mix…hmmm My 7 year old daughter rides a bus w/a girl her age who attends a catholic school, and this girl has twice taken things intentionally from my daughter and refused to return them. I read a story of a 6 yr old boy who pulled a knife on the bus over some pokemon cards and later threatened to kill the other 2kids…what’d he get? Kicked off the bus…oh no…how about some counseling for this youngster? What do you think he’ll be like as a teenager w/that pathetic consequence for his behavior. Why not take a look at some of the parents in this world who are instilling this behavior and attitudes…lack of morals, etc. That’s where the ultimate responsibility lies from day one!!!!

I feel for the family of Elizabeth. I could never imagine what they are going through…every parents worst nightmare. I do hope they find the strength w/in their family unit to make it through the most difficult time they will ever have to go through. As for the teenage murderer…I don’t care one bit what lame excuse she comes up with. There is no excuse for what she did. I do hope they waive her to adult court where she can face life in prison…she deserves that…she also deserves to spend every year for the rest of her life remembering the awful thing she did to this poor girl. Consequences…she deserves a lengthy prison stay!!!!!

I’ll stick my neck out here to suggest that we hold back for now on thoroughly condemning the 15 year old. Of course we should as far as what she did. But we do not know yet why she did it.
We tend to immediately turn the victim into an angel and the killer into the devil.

I’m not saying this is true in this case. It’s only an example of how things can work sometimes. But it’s possible that the victim taunted and berated the older child, could have done any number of hurtful things against her or to tic her off. We know children can be cruel.
Of course I am not saying the victim deserved what she got – or that any victim ever does.
But we have to wait to hear the other side of the story. Why did this happen? It may be thoroughly unfounded and the killer may be the devil. But maybe both are tarnished angels?
Just a thought.

*murderer…

This just pisses me off. Kids killing kids.
Come on now.

This makes my heart ache.

Cherry, I think you misunderstood the intent of my post. I was responding to Monique’s wish that the girl have to go to adult court and be put away for life. We don’t know anything at all about the girl who killed Elizabeth. Or the circumstances. So for me it’s too soon to wish for something like that. She may be evil through and through or she may be a kid who temporarily “lost it.” I know that either way she’s still a murderer but I’d like to know more about her before, for example, condemning her to heck for all eternity.

treece, I didn’t see the part about it being premeditated. Did LE find something to show that?
I missed it! Please let me know.
So that also makes me wonder why?
Also by saying she might have been picked on or lost it, I was just giving examples of things not trying to create theories. I just don’t like jumping to conclusions and condemning an entire person to the worst of the worst without knowing a whole lot more. Not that it makes the crime less horrible. Not that it provides an excuse.
But it can provide a reason.
If it was premeditated we do not know why (do we?) and we do not know anything else about the killer.
And that’s really important to know – especially to prevent things like this from happening.

m2c, click on the abc news link in Jan’s article above and states it is murder 1. The link below shows murder 1 has to be premeditated.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m053.htm

Thank you, treece. I had connected the charge with meaning premeditation.

Yes, treece, that’s exactly what I meant. Something must have been going on – somewhere in her life or with Elizabeth – no matter what it was or even if it was in her imagination – whatever – for the girl to “decide” to commit murder. That’s what I want to know. It could also be something unbelievabley trivial (to us).

I understand WhiskeyMike. I’m just saying that at least I don’t know anything about the 15 year old other than recently learning LE found proof of premeditation. I still want to know why.
I’m not comfortable tossing a rope over a tree until I know a lot more than I do now.
This does NOT mean that I am looking for or will accept excuses of any kind. I just don’t want to make decisions of any kind – including whether she should be tried as an adult – until I know all the facts. (Or as many as LE will let us know)

I just found this news item from late yesterday I guess. Maybe you all saw it already but here it is. The link is below the quote:

“A judge ruled that the 15-year-old girl charged in Elizabeth Olten’s death would remain in juvenile custody until he decides next month whether the first-degree murder case should be tried in adult court.”

http://news.aol.com/article/15-year-old-girl-held-in-slaying-of/734317

m2c, I agree and that would eliminate a bunch of the repeat offenders!! So many repeaters are out early on parole when they are caught for the 2nd offense. God only knows how many victims before they are caught again.

I understand, m2c, and I respect your resolve to wait out the facts. I am just so tired of children being murdered, and people using the way they were brought up as an excuse. People years ago had it much worse, and the law wasn’t even on their side back then. Half the time it’s total BS anyway. Just an excuse they have learned they can use, and some dadgum lawyer will always come riding in to screech about their poor, helpless, misguided and mistreated background. Baloney!
This girl had a roof over her head, food in her gut, and a cell phone in her hand. She was living with her grandparents, which helped remove her from the “bad upbringing” she was getting. Her victim was a 9 yr old; her sibling’s friend. Probably trusted this 15 yr old like she was her big sister. It isn’t just the fact that this child was murdered. She had her trust, faith, and security violated long before her body expired. Every day we read about another child gone, or one who was almost abducted. I am tired of it. Our greatest natural resource is our prosperity, and we are more concerned with the rights of criminals than we are these precious links to our future. I have lost all capability of trying to understand a motive; what possible motive could there be for killing a 9 yr old child? No matter what kind of life this suspect has lived, Elizabeth is not the blame for it, nor should she have lost her life because of it.
Cruel and unusual punishment? That’s what these children suffer; not the heinous fiends who perpetrate such crimes. It’s time we put the criminals back on bread and water. No air conditioning, no weight room, and no cable. How is it punishment if most are living, and eating, better there than they did at home? At least for those convicted of crime against children. I don’t care how old they are, if it isn’t self defense then it isn’t excusable.
The bleeding hearts have destroyed this country with their whining about criminal rights. For each time they whine, we should shout over them for the victim’s rights. (all jmo)

On a different note, here are some links for crimes against children laws. Hope this helps.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/10/us/10execute.html?ex=1307592000&en=75a37596b25e8dc4&ei=5090&partner=rssus

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2003/April/03_ag_266.htm

http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/law2ac.htm

snipped for space
m2c said: “…..but IF they had anything to do with it then WE need to know so WE can shoulder some blame and improve what needs to be improved.”

Here is where we differ. I do not believe in the “society should share the blame” idea. Who is this “society”? All of us, as a whole? How can I share blame for someone I never knew?

Personal responsibility has got to be taken. By the perpetrator for the crime; and by the family IF any known or suspected mental illness exists. I say if because we all know that the mental illness card has been played out. There are a lot of folks getting a free ride on the crazy train, and that has to stop too.

No one takes personal responsibility anymore. It is always someone or something else’s fault. I call BS. OK, her father is in prison, and her momma is a druggie (alleged). So are thousand of other kids’ parents, and those children are being raised by their grandparents too. Most are living a better life, as the grandparents come from a generation of selflessness instead of selfishness.

There was a 10 yr old boy whose father walked out on the family, and his mother died a year later. He was placed in a foster home where discipline could be pretty rough. The foster parents provided for him, but never adopted him. The boy grew up to have gambling problems,which led to his dropping out of school and joining the service. His foster mother died, and he was disowned by his foster father due to bitter arguments about his foster father having illegitimate children with women he cheated on his 2nd wife with. His wife died young, and he suffered severe depression and showed signs of being mentally unstable. He became known for his heavy drinking and erratic behavior. He died of alcoholism at the age of 40. He never killed anyone, especially a child.

His name was Edgar Allen Poe.

My point of this narration is that no matter how you grew up, there comes a point of personal responsibility for your actions. Mr. Poe had all of the excuses; abandoned, grew up in a foster home, alcoholism, and mental illness. He may have destroyed his own life, but he did not take an innocent child’s. Others grow up the same way, and choose not to even destroy their own life. It is personal choices; not societal. This girl has to take ownership for the choice she made. The one she planned.

All jmo.

And when I originally said that I wanted to know more before screaming for her to be tried as an adult, and sentenced to life without parole or the death penalty, all I had heard was that a 15 year old had killed a 9 year old. That is all I knew and – I believe – all some other people knew (many of those other people being the ones screaming for her head). I just wanted to know more before jumping on that bandwagon.

Thank you, Whiskey Mike! Sorry it took so long for me to try to explain my thoughts.

When a bunch of us were talking about the Caylee Anthony case long ago we discussed offering help to mothers who do not want their kids. Instead of screaming at them about how horrible and unnatural they are, if we really cared about kids we’d say, “Okay. Let’s find a way to help you.” Depending on the root of the problem it could be enabling her to give up the child (without blame or shame); or providing other support systems.
Very recently a young single mother told her five year old to smother the 11 month old and she sat and watched. After the baby stopped breathing she called 911. Long story short EMT saved the baby (I hope there isn’t brain damage). But the mother explained that she could not go back to work because she could not afford childcare for the baby so she thought it would be better if the baby was dead.
Well what if there was a “911” kind of number for mothers who are in a jam like that? What if the community HELPED moms who are having a difficult time?
That won’t help the selfish ones who don’t want anyone else to have their child (if they can’t) but it might help some.

m2c,
In the case of the mother who allowed the 2 yr old to smother the infant; I call BS! There are many programs for single women, including one that helps to pay for daycare. How much she would have had to pay would have been based on her income. I also have my doubts as to whether the 2 yr old was even the one to smother his sibling. The baby was almost a yr old, and would have struggled. A bean bag chair is heavy, so I wonder if a 2 yr old could lift it. The baby had been hospitalized 4 times since the end of Sept, and DCF claimed they reported to police that doctors had determined the mother was to blame for the breathing troubles, not the apnea she claimed the child had. I wonder if it was a case of Munchausen by proxy.
Too much is iffy there for me to believe it was simply a case of not affording daycare.
As for the Casey Anthony’s of the world, they would rather see their child dead, than allow anyone else to raise it. Otherwise, she could have simply dropped Caylee off at her parents, and disappeared. We have programs where parents who do not want their child can drop them off at safety spots, such as hospitals or churches, without fear of retribution. The Casey’s of the world would never use them. They don’t care what is best for the child; only how it makes them look. If she could convince her family and friends that her child was abducted (and found murdered), she would be a star. Everyone would have catered to her, and consoled her, and she would not have been labeled as “one of those mothers who gave her child up”. Her image was more important than her baby’s life, IMO. Thankfully, she was not as skilled in deception to that degree as she imagined herself to be. All just my opinions of course.
Personally, I don’t think we are going to ever have programs to stop this madness. It is a selfish world, with kids existing (not being raised) with drug and alcohol addicted parents. Also with parents who have never been taught empathy, or awareness outside of their self. How empathetic will their children be? Until we can bring back compassionate family structure, we will continue to have parents killing children, children killing children, and children killing parents.

CT, I don’t think this was sexually motivated. I think it was just a morbid desire to watch someone die, and to be the one who caused it. Just a dark thrill. All jmo.

m2c, you are correct, their age is why the files are sealed. LE can not even release the name of the killer unless a judge says the killer will be tried as an adult. The hearing to determine that decision is later this month. just FYI

Hi, Whiskey Mike!
You said, about the smothered baby incident, ” The baby had been hospitalized 4 times since the end of Sept, and DCF claimed they reported to police that doctors had determined the mother was to blame for the breathing troubles, not the apnea she claimed the child had.”
That’s what I’m talking about. WE as the tax paying public assume that DCF and hospitals and police etc are all doing what’s necessary to protect children and they are NOT OR the LAW is getting in the way – I don’t know which or maybe it’s both.
But they’re continuing to give parents the benefit of the doubt and over and over again returning children to extremely high risk homes. That’s the kind of thing I want all of us to “wake up to.” Children need more protection and they are not getting it – even when DCF etc is involved. I don’t understand that!
Also, regarding the Elizabeth Olten case, now that I’ve read what happened I am all for trying her murderer as an adult if for no other reason than to keep her locked up for the rest of her life -to die in prison pray heaven. There is no “cure” for whatever is wrong with that girl and even if there was, then there isn’t a punishment more appropriate than LWOP. IMO.