Thanks for the note. Re: Rifqa – I would agree that if Rifqa were younger it might be different. But Rifqa is 17. She’ll be 18 in August.

Also, I’ve listened to the audio tapes of Rifqa’s depostion. She’s been seeking out many “Dad’s” it seems like. She talks on the one hand about how she kept things secret, but on the other hand, is giving lists and lists of people – including many men – that she has told about the issues through the years. She’d been hiding her Christianity for about 3 years.

Now, about kids bad mouthing. Hey, I’ve also had legal custody of four kids that weren’t my own. All four suffered from FAS, attachment issues, and ADD. Two are now over 18, and I learned lots the hard way with them. I now have the third one getting professional help, and wish I’d done that for the older two while I still had a chance. I strongly recommend that – if you are already seeing difficulties, and you don’t know for sure what her experience was while in womb…get help. It will be a long, long trek through the teen years without it, and the final results, as with our two older ones, might be horrid. The two older ones sought out their birth parents last year and are currently living with them, drinking and doing drugs.

By the way – that was an additional stress to my birth daughter, and might have been even worse than dealing with my husband’s illness. Growing up with four kids that had these many issues.

Which brings me back to Rifqa. While I was listening to her on the audio – the bubbly, innocent, overly polite,….hmmm… how do I say this. You know that when your 13 yr old is bad mouthing you, she does it in a way that gets the sympathy of other adults, right? She’s real sweet around them, am I wrong?
The girl I had did the same thing. Very bubbly, appearance of complete innocense, but very deceitful, very much craving whatever attention she could get. She was that way from the time she came into our home when she was 5 yrs old.
I hear that in Rifqa’s voice, and it makes me cautious. Again, not that Sharia doesn’t exist. But …as I was saying with my own children, and your 13 yr-old, we have to be aware that there are other things going on under the surface.

And I have to say, that there is a possiblity that Rifqa is a Christian in name only – using it as a tool to obtain something, whether it be the angst of her parents or the attention of a very giving and gullible group of people.

Others that haven’t experienced the extent some children might go to might not believe that. But it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve run into adults that can’t wrap their heads around kids with deep seated problems.

I’m just saying. It’s easy for everyone watching the news in their living room to assume the parents are villians, simply because Rifqa tells us they are.

Maybe they are and she really is innocent of any deceit. But I doubt she’s totally innocent, especially since she told the deposers that she’d been deceiving her parents in other areas as well, like with cheerleading. She thought it was funny that they didn’t know what cheerleading was, so she dressed modestly at home, and then changed into her cheerleading outfit at school. And this was during the time she was professing Christ.

Sharia is real, and evil. Rifqa doesn’t deserve to die. But Rifqa isn’t the sweet innocent she portrays herself as, either. She laughed a lot while talking about how she has deceived her parents. And any normal parent that finds out they have been lied to feels hurt and anger.

Sharia law is not practised in Sri Lanka. In fact Muslims on the island of Sri Lanka are some of the most easy going people you can find anywhere. I worked for a prominent charity on the island for 6 years.

That’s exactly the reason her parents allowed her to be a cheerleader.

Honour Killings have nothing to do with Islam. In fact there has never been a reported case of an honour killing on the island of Sri Lanka. Honour killings are a cultural practise. Hindus in India are notorious for honour killings, but the Muslims in India are not. So there is a clear difference, and blatant ignorance shown amongst Christians in the US.

When you work it all out, you realise Rifqa converted when she was 12. Will you let your 12 year old be influenced by people she met on the internet, and ask yourself if you will allow your 12 year old to convert to another religion.

As Christians we must condemn the actions of our fellow Christians, and call them out.

LTCUSA – I don’t think you read what was written by myself or by Pamela.

As I have written, you really don’t know for a fact what would happen if Rifqa went back.

Esther, through prayer, fasting, obedience and faith – honoring her Uncle’s request – lived.

Daniel, through prayer, fasting, obedience and faith – honoring the Lord God – lived.

David, through prayer, fasting, obedience and faith – honoring Saul’s position – lived.

And the list goes on.

Further, as already posted, you really have no idea of what is going on other than what Rifqa has said and what the news has reported. That means only her side of the story.

As a Christian, I AM standing up and doing something. I wrote this!

Tell me what else you think I can or should do in this situation? Fly to Ohio and confront…hmmm…which one? Whom do I confront and what do I say? What basis do I have to confront anyone? What the heck are you talking about?

I don’t have the right to say to Rifqa that you are to allow your parents to wipe out your life and call that submission to God. She is an apostate in the eyes of Islam and an honor killing is the remedy. As a Christian that is not okay to me. We are told to rescue those who have been delivered up to death, to care for the poor, abused and oppressed of the earth. That is the mandate for following Jesus. That is our mandate and Rifqa and all the Rifqa’s fit that bill. We are to risk our lives to protect them, not shrink back in fear for our lives and throw them to the Muslim bully who just happens to be her flesh and blood parent. God and the world are watching this case. We pray and stand up for what is right and break the back of the stranglehold that Islam is trying to put on the world. Islam’s goal is to prevent a person from seeking the face of Almighty God. We say “NO!” and we work to free the slavery of Islam. We do not bow to the spirit of this age and expect their blood to not be on our hands. Pray and work for Rifqa’s freedom to worship God. The world is watching and we Christians better step up to the plate and stop hiding behind misappropriation of the scripture.

Let me remind people of something.

We have a justice system in America. As imperfect as it is, it is one of the best justice systems in the world. It is not Sharia, and for that we are extremely grateful.

So realize that Rifqa is in the legal system. OUR legal system.

You can gather protesters, picket court rooms, and rile people on the radio, but if there is any justice in our court system, public opinion will not have any effect on the court decisions.

WE DON’T WANT public opinion to affect court decisions, do we? That’s what makes our court system different – and more “Just” than other systems, right?

So PRAY. But pray for God’s will, not your own. Fast for Rifqa. But fast that she will hear God’s voice and direction, NOT yours or mine. Pray that she will get away from the attention and loud voices, and find a peaceful place and time to talk to just Him – God – just she and Him.

That’s all.

Do you trust God to know and do what is right for Rifqa? Do you truly trust God to protect her? Are you afraid He will make a mistake?

Obviously you aren’t reading what I am actually writing.

Thank you for your notes. Thank God for opportunities to fellowship together. Thank You, God, for allowing your body of Christ to sharpen itself continually as various issues come up and we are free to talk about them.

God be with you, sister. May God’s presence be with you.

Amen! – to your note, and in particular the hope that you have. Thank you for understanding what I’ve been trying to say.

I’ve raised nine kids – 5 birth and 4 legal custody. Every one of them a unique learning experience. I now have two grandchildren, one of whom is crawling up my back and over my head as I write.

There have been red flags jumping out at me for quite awhile concerning this case. I’ve felt the need to put it on paper for about a month.

Joe–as an adult, I have indeed made such choices. I adopted transracially and knew that I might lose some family relationships (my parents were already deceased) as a result. The path has been rocky, but generally we have been blessed with acceptance. But–what I choose as an adult is something quite different from the expectation that I would lay on a child. What I find particularly galling in this case is the many Christian voices from the sidelines who make such suggestions. I don’t know if you have children, but imagine if someone you don’t know approached them, behind your back, ad used that passage to justify their leaving home and going to follow Jesus, say by living on a commune with other Christians. Do you think that they might be over-reaching a bit on their use of the passage in that context?

Joe – I understand that the Bible can be confusing at times.

Luke 14:26 does NOT mean that every Christian is supposed to hate everyone in their family, and if they don’t, they are going to hell.
It means that when push comes to shove, we have to understand that God comes first.
God is number one, and everyone and everything in our lives comes next. That’s all it means.

If it meant other than that, the 5th Commandment wouldn’t exist. Not only does it exist, but the statement, with it’s promise, is repeated several times throughout the Scripture.

As a matter of fact;
Matthew 15:3-5 (New International Version)

3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother'[a] and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’

Is the Bible contradictory? No. It just needs to be studied in context, and with an understanding of the original language. The Greek word Miseo means “hate,” but Luke 14:26 falls into a category of “extreme language,” the language of absoluteness used to express a preference, and may refer to disattachment, indifference, or nonattachment without any feelings of revulsion involved.

And to your other point – No. In America, we follow the American system of Justice and we respect parental rights. Again, we praise God for that. Many other nations don’t give their people that blessing. Rifqa’s parents have not been found guilty of anything.

Removing her from her parents influence to save her soul? Sounds like the Middle Ages. Funny you would bring up Joan of Arc, who was burned at the stake in order to “save her soul.” Fortunately, the Catholic church no longer does such things, recognizes that it has no power over souls, and has ceased all efforts to force salvation.

It is slightly hyperbolic to suggest that if Rifqa honors her father by not contacting the Florida family (getting back to one of the points of my original message) that she will be condemned to hell for all eternity.

But I understand if you don’t agree. God Bless you, my brother. May God give you peace and assurance that if Rifqa is His child, He is in control.

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” – Luke 14:26-27

My interpretation is that a child is supposed to honor his or her parents, absolutely, unless their parents are threatening to kill them.

We should not be judging Rifqa for her actions. This is a clear case. The fact that her parents’ attorneys are taking back what they filed on January 19th is evidence that they are not going to leave her alone.

One last note is that even after Rifqa turns 18, the persecution that Rifqa is getting will never go away. She will continue to be hounded for the rest of her life because she made her statement of faith in Christ public. In Muslim terms, not only is Rifqa an apostate, she is a publicly stated, on the record, apostate. This alone will embitter some extreme groups out there. Rifqa will be on the run, looking around her shoulder from now on.

Agiri–one of my greatest concerns in this case is the level of exaggeration and the publication of unsupported accusations. There were a couple of blogs that published the first broken deal story–which allege that the Barys cut a deal with the Florida court, by which the court would drop the requirement that they provide additional documentation of their immigration status and in return the Barys would consent to a foster care placement in Ohio.

There are several things wrong with this story–in addition to the fact that no one has presented any shred of documentation. John Stemberger–who has been spreading the story and was Rifqa’s Florida attorney claims that he was not a party to the deal. In addition, the Bary’s agreed to an Ohio foster care placement much earlier–as reported by Eric Fenner of FCCS on Sept 4. Finally–the ability of the court in Florida to make a deal that would bind anyone in Ohio to anything is limited. The final line of the story is always that the Barys then fired the attorney who made the deal. The only change in attorney that I can see happening at that time was the change from the Florida team to the Ohio team.

With regard to the current action–the court will have to decide if any agreements have been violated. And the court would have knowledge of exactly what each party agreed to. If FCCS et al agreed to ensure that Rifqa had no contact with the Lorenz family and the group in Columbus that connected her to the other folks who were instrumental in interfering with her family life, then, I would say that the court should ensure that they do so. There are many many churches in Columbus–and most do not operate on the shady side of the law in custody cases. It should be possible to find one.

While it is understood that non-Christians would be confused by what I was writing about, it is disturbing that many people that claim Jesus Christ are also confused.

We stand on who God is and what He clearly states in His Word. Our God is an awesome God; He loves us and desires only the best for us. In return, we worship, praise, honor and obey Him. He is our Savior, our Protector, our Master. In Him, we have no fear.

1 John 4:13
By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

What does it mean to abide in Him, and He in us? Too often, we Christians, (especially in North America) have no idea what it really means to “Abide in Christ,” and “Walk in the Spirit” as opposed to walking in the flesh. Not many of our churches teach it very well.

Watchman Nee, a Chinese evangelist, did an excellant job explaining it. He pointed out the need to rest In Jesus in all things. Life suddenly becomes much easier when we do.

He told the story of a young man drowning, while his friends sat helplessly on the shore. One of the friends, who was an expert swimmer, stood still watching while the others frantically urged him to jump in and save the young man. “What is wrong with you! He’s drowning! Save him!” He said nothing. Just watched.

Finally, when it looked like the drowning man had become too weak to continue and was going down for the last time, the expert swimmer jumped in, raced to his side, grabbed hold, and pulled him to shore.

The friends, hysterical at this point, pointed to the exhausted victim and yelled at the rescuer, “Why did you wait so long!” “Why did you make him go through that if it was all so easy to just go out there and get him!”

“Because,” the rescuer responded, “If I had gone out there earlier, while he was still strong and panicked, he would have grabbed hold of my neck and drowned us both. I had to wait until he was done fighting before I could help him.”

And so it is with Jesus. While we are still fighting in our own flesh, He reluctantly stands aside; loving us and desperately wanting to help, but knowing that until we finally give up and admit to ourselves that we can’t do it on our own – He can only wait.

When we have finally come to the end of ourselves and sincerely desire His help, He comes in and does the walking for us. That is when we are walking in the Spirit. And that is the Spirit that you see in so many oppressed and suffering Christians around the world, who, despite all the circumstances around them, continue to sing with the peace and joy of the Holy Spirit.

Have you heard the stories of Haitian Christians singing praises to God? Look at some of the Christian news sites, where they report on such things.

It’s hard for many of us, myself included, to truly “Let go and let God,” but when we do, there is nothing more wonderful than walking in the Spirit.

All these accusations from people that don’t understand what it means to “Abide in Christ” – Not once did I say in any of my writing that Rifqa MUST return to her parents and be murdered. All I have said is that, as a Christian abiding in Christ, there is no fear.
Obedience to God, honoring one’s Father, and being the witness we are all meant to be, – loving others more than our selves – is of utmost importance.

However, while I have said that one evidence of obedience to God would be obeying her parents wishes by not contacting the Florida family, I have no idea whether or not she is to return to her parents. And no one else, outside a prophetic Word from the Lord, knows either.

Pray for Rifqa, that God’s will be done. Not anyone else’s will. Pray that God will lead the judge to make the right decision, and that Rifqa and her parents will all accept it as well as grow closer to God through it.

And by the way, as Christians I am sure we can all agree that if Rifqa’s parents are trully as bad as so many that don’t know them say that they are – then most surely we Christians want the best for them; that they come to know Jesus Christ just as their daughter has. The best way for all of us Christians to help with that is to pray for them, and to be Godly, loving, and kind witnesses to them.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I pray that we can all love others in the World that much – no matter how evil we might think they are.

Praise God, my brothers and sisters! We serve and awesome, strong God, who is totally in control, knows all things, and loves and wants the best for us!

Picking up:

It is hard for me not to get sucked in again to this conversation, but you have some highly questionable pieces of the story. I have read many people charge that there was an agreement made in Florida by which the Barys agreed to allow Rifqa to stay in foster care in exchange for not revealing an illegal immigration status. Not only have I never seen any documentation, but the final court hearing when this is supposed to have taken place was closed. And Rifqa’s lead attorney, John Stemberger (one of the parties spreading this tale) claims not to have been involved in the deal. On top of all of this is the reality that a court in Florida would not be able to bind a court (or Childrens Services) in Ohio to anything–let alone have anything to say about immigration.

Likewise, the specific terms of any agreements made in Ohio with regard to promises to limit contact with the Lorenz’s (or any other parties who aided or harbored Rifqa in running away) are known only by those parties and the judge. So–the statements about how the parents are backing out on deals strike me as being purely speculative. We do know that FCCS had earlier raised concerns about Rifqa having any contact with the Blake Lorenz–and the DCF in Florida had asked the court to ban all contact with the entire family.

As an adoptive parent, having contacts with a good many other adoptive and foster families, I can attest that not every runaway is running away from bad stuff at home. Some are. Some run away from the foster homes that they are placed in to keep them safe. I have know children to run from adoptive homes where they have been loved and well-cared for back to a home of origin that was neglectful or abusive. Some run in the illusion that they can escape problems that in the end they carry with them. Some run back to families of origin out of feelings of responsibility or loyalty.

If only life were so simple. There is a great book, written by adoptive parents, called “Wasn’t Love Supposed to be Enough?” which details the adoptive experience and the many ways in which children respond to family. I have also know bio families who have that one kid who for some reason has far more difficulties than all the others–in spite of having the same parents, the same family as their siblings.

BTW–the child who was homeless and not attending school: did you make a report?

PU–in your initial post you stated: “As a precondition of Rifqa’s removal from Florida to Ohio she was to stay in foster care, and not be returned to her parents. This has been undermined at every opportunity since she arrived back in Ohio by her parents and their attorney” My response to this was to refer to the circulation of a story that there was a deal struck in Florida as I outlined–drop the requirement that they produce additional immigration documentation in exchange for the agreement not to oppose foster care. This story (unfounded as you note due to the family court totally lacking jurisdiction over immigration matters) is the only reference I have ever seen to any agreement for ongoing foster care until the age of 18. If this is NOT what you were talking about, please clarify.

Florida was in fact required at the end of the day to release the case to Ohio. Their initial refusal to do so was grounded on the interstate compact not being invoked because there was no case on file in any Ohio court. This caught everyone in Ohio by surprise because there had been until that point no need for a case to be opened. There was no suspicion of neglect or abuse. Nor crime had been charged. This was what ultimately sparked the unruly charge (which many have charged puts the Barys in a bad light)–as running away does in fact constitute unruliness.

I would agree with you–the Florida family court has been quirky over time, to say the least. In the end, however, they would have had to cede to outside authority–as they did in the cases of Elian Gonzales and Terry Schiavo.

I don’t know that I could honestly advocate for a return home at this time. I don’t believe quite honestly that this family has the resources to deal with this situation–given the numbers of well-meant outsiders who believe that it would be heroic to assist in another “escape.” But I cannot put aside the very real possibility that a viable family has been destroyed by the efforts of unrelated zealots. I strongly suspect that there was a point before all this happened when responsible family counselling might have been very helpful. And I hold accountable all those who dabble in ministry without an appreciation for the responsibility to minister to individuals and families–even when the families are outside the faith.

Thanks Adoptive Mom-
I’m glad you are up on a lot of the points concerning the legalities. I also appreciate that you are a mom that sees the diversity of children, and has a willingness to understand with Grace. I like you! It’s great to communicate with someone that can see these things. You mentioned that you’ve adopted transracially – and I too, have a transracial family. That adds another dimension to family dynamics.

Back to the point of the article – Rifqa has taken on the name of Jesus Christ. Those that haven’t made a study of what that really means won’t understand the article.

I didn’t place the name of Christ on her. She chose it, and with that choice, came a responsibilty.

Indeed, I did say there was a precondition- because the legal proceedings in Florida ended abruptly not because there was a judgement- but because the two sides had reached an agreement- at no time did I say that it was because of the Bary’s residence status in the U.S.. This is your big thing to try and lump me with this. In a previous post I did state my position on their residence status, and will not repeat it here. I don’t know what triggered a sudden agreement between the sides- if Rifqa’s attorney had some leverage he used to his clients advantage good for him (whatever it was- which I don’t claim to know or care-because again it is not germain to the case)- but no the negogiations would not be recored, or be a matter of public record. But I do want to be clear in no way am I refuting an article. I don’t know the source of the claims, but if Rifqa’s attorney made such a claim as you state- that would be a primary source of information, as it is the attorneys that represent the clients and actually do this. My comments are not targeting that article, but rather your logic. I will say lumping me together with individuals who raise the issue of Bary’s residency status is akin to me lumping you with CAIR- because your talking points are complete and pure CAIR press release talking points. I don’t do that because I think its a cheap shot- and would prefer if you don’t do that to me. Rather, I believe you are misguided in your analysis- but I think you have arrived at your conclusions based on your own convictions and are not a CAIR shill, although you may be a useful idiot of CAIR.

Further, you admit that one state cannot bind one state- Florida’s legal proceedings started BEFORE Ohios. The Bary’s attorneys knew they stood to lose much more in Florida than they did in ohio- and it was in his clients best interest to attempt to move the venue to Ohio. If judgement had occured in Florida- Ohio would have had to petition the court, and proceedings would have moved very slowly. your vague citing of the state’s compact would not have nessicarily forced Florida to return Rifqa to Ohio if the determination that the Bary’s legally lost custody. Infact, your response was so odd that I felt I could not respond to it until I understood what you were trying to say. Finally, it is unlikely that Federal Courts would intervene without reason- Family Courts are notoriously the proving ground of states. Elians case had many considerations of international relations and many legal question marks- but was resolved the way it was resolved inspite of this.

Finally, it seems higly suspicious to me that Christian Adoptive Mom and Lisa are one and the same people- and I invite any techie to do an i.p. address scan- to see if that is the case- because the speech patterns, logic, and timing seem to point to this conclusion.

Since you don’t know Rifqa personally it is impossible to know where she is in her spiritual journey. It is also quite pridful amd misguided to pretend to know God’s will and plan for her. God did not start Jesus’ ministry into his 30’s. Perhaps God has a bigger plans for Rifqa than to perish at the hands of a violent and abusive family.

Here’s an interesting post that goes into the legal issues fairly explicitly–particularly regarding the roles of the Florida and Ohio courts. The author and I disagree regarding the postulated danger that Rifqa faces from her parents, but I believe that he does a very clear job of explaining the legal issues and decisions http://jewishodysseus.blogspot.com/2010/02/thoughts-on-rifqa-bary.html

Well, lumping millions of conservative Christians together in a statement concerning our children is certainly just as prejudicial as lumping all Muslims together.

If you have never had a moment of rebellion with any of your childen, you have done an amazing job and I applaud you for it.

I am not addressing the culpability of the parents because, if you would re-read the article again, I am addressing the “taking up” of one’s cross; something that pertains to the purpose and point of our Christian walk.

Rifqa tells us she is servant of Christ. Her parents have not.