The Roman Catholic Church does many good things, but sadly at its most recent major conference, Vatican II, its reform disposed Pope died and the Church has since been a major enemy of vital human rights, particularly those of women and gays. Manifestly women need all the protections they can get against venereal diseases. Gays should not be attacked because St. Paul proposed that they deserved death.
It looks to me as though the major problem of this church is that noted by Luther — domination by a Roman Empire model of political controls. The Times editorial below gives a whack to one of my least favorite among the political control figures. There are worse. Probably celibacy should be abandoned. It serves no particular positive purpose and has caused evils such as those noted in this editorial. There are many good Catholic scholars who have been silenced when they have spoken out, e.g. Hans Kung and John Courtney Murray, S.J. whom I included in my field text, Law and Philosophy, many years ago.
I gather that the Church is losing ground both in Europe and in Latin America, gaining in some parts of Africa. I wonder what will happen here where many good Catholics disagree with their Church on some of the issues noted above?
I leave you here with the Times editorial sentiments which demonstrate that the Church is under fire and will probably be more so publicly in the future. The current Pope is no hero of mine — only a Hitler youth and not a supporter of the Nazis as one pope was during WW II.
Enough said.
A Bishop’s Words
It is chilling to read Bishop Edward Egan’s response to the
alleged accounts of child abuse by priests in recently
released documents.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/opinion/07mon2.html?th&emc=th
………………
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“A war is just if there is no alternative, and the resort to arms is legitimate if they represent your last hope.” (Livy cited by Machiavelli)
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Ed Kent [blind copies]
10 users commented in " Catholic Church Reforms? "
Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackHow does celibacy cause pedophilia? What “vital human rights” are women and gays being denied by the church, and what makes you believe that they are “rights”? What method of prevention against venereal disease works better than abstinence?
The current pope was forced to become a Hitler youth and he and his family were very much against the Nazis. And please explain how another pope supported the Nazis.
In the end times, many faithful will abandon the Church, but only those who persevere will be saved. The Church is right on all these issues. It is our country’s moral relativism that is wrong.
Andre,
I am not Catholic, but I can answer your first couple questions from a women’s perspective:
1. How does celibacy cause pedophilia?
Because a large percentage of men cannot go without it so they rape and molest children, then when discovered, hidden by the church in a new location so they can repeat the molestations there.
2. What “vital human rights” are women being denied by the church?
The right to leave a violent abusive relationship without their children being excommunicated from the church as punishment. The right to a divorce from a man who beats her and the children.
It is just common sense that no God would wish these violations on a human, these principles are simply made up by humans – they didn’t come from God. In my opinion anyone who follows rules that allow beating, rape and molestation is absolutely presenting a horrible example for their children to follow the same organized religion no matter what they preach.
Celibacy does not cause pedophilia as shown by the millions of priests in history who have not abused children. The abusers are a very small minority and they are just as at risk of mental illness as any other human being.
An annulment can be given to a married couple if reason exists for abuse or a threat to the spouse or children. Divorce cannot be granted as it is a sacrament given by God (as witnessed during the marriage). The Church provides for a physical “separation.”
It would be helpful if you knew what you were talking about. Try reading the Compendium to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It will tell you most everything you need to know, which will help you not be ignorant in your posts.
LindaOz: As someone who has successfully lived a celibate life (as a priest) without raping or molesting anyone, please permit me to answer your charges.
As to #1… well I will let my life, and the lives of the overwhelming majority of my brother priests now and through the ages speak to the fallacy of this argument.
As to #2… none of what you say is correct. Women are not told to stay in abusive relationships and they are not excommunicated if they divorce their partner.
Since these are the supports for your conclusions, they pretty much far to dust. I will be happy to respond to any point or question you might wish to raise.
Fr. Tim Moyle
Paul & Father Moyle,
Thank you for your feedback.
The information I was given came from a Catholic Priest who counseled my fiance and myself prior to marriage in the mid-1980s. I did not marry this man because I could not agree to the conditions of the Catholic church. Secondly this reflected hipocracy on the part of my fiance who never attended church the 6 years I lived with him, yet insisted on marrying in a Catholic church.
Celibacy should not cause pedophilia. I know the vast majority of priests remain celebate. My objection is that for the ones that do molest children, I have never seen these preditors turned over to the police, rather they are transferred to another church where the behavior usually repeats itself. Now if the church has changed the way they handle these situations I’m interested in hearing about it and will stand corrected if these policies have changed.
Respectfully,
Linda
LindaOz: If the priest you dealt with at the time of your engagement was not current in his theology, then there might be some excuse for for his information, but the Code of Canon Law that was promulgated in 1984 removed any Church penalties for couples who divorce.
As to the abuser priests, the policy has been since this scandal began to break in the mid 1980’s to suspend any priest about whom an allegation is received. The Police are informed, if that is the wish of the complainant. The very fact that you can easily put together such a list of predators is proof in itself that they are prosecuted in court. If they are found to be guilty they are sentenced to jail time. Each of these steps from charging through to imprisonment is always well documented in the media.
I am not aware of any Diocese in North America that follows a different protocol. Details might vary within dioceses, and some of them are playing legal “hardball” with those who are following these criminal events with civil suits, but the “one strike” policy that the Canadian Bishops developed in the 80’s and the American Bishops five or six years ago is the standard everywhere.
Again I repeat as I have oft said before: if the policy of the allegedly powerful Catholic Church was to hide offenders, do you honestly think that you would so easily be able to google a horror list of offenders?
The situation is far from perfect. I have no doubt that there will continue to be other offenders revealed in the future – but now the Church has earned the right through the opprobrium we have endured due to the actions of unfaithful priests to be judged by the policy we now claim.
If a Bishop, priest or any other level of cleric breaches this policy, they deserve the full wrath of God and man. At least allow those of us who have worked and lived faithfully not to be have our witness, work and life unduly tarnished by the misdeeds of others.
Agree?
Fr. Tim
Father Tim;
Thanks for your comments.
I’m relieved to hear that the Catholic Church decided to stop excommunicating member’s & their children for divorce. I am also glad that after the priest molesters were revealed by their victims, the church finally stopped hiding them in new locations to victimize others. The fact that the church not only allowed these things to happen, but hid the crimes is appalling. They did not correct their actions until forced to by victims making these crimes public. Given these atrocities I could never trust the Catholic Church to be honest or to care for their members more than their public image.
Yes, it is horrible that the church has been tarnished by these pedophiles, but the church must take responsibility for hiding these criminals and allowing the crimes to continue against other child members.
An insider’s comments. Ed Kent
‘WHERE IS KNOWING GOING?’
December 9, 2009
Georgetown theologian discusses his new book on Catholic higher education.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/12/09/haughey
Here is a sample:
Q: Much of the public discussion of these issues focuses on those who dissent from Church teachings — how much of that dissent did you find? Were you troubled by that?
A: Dissent from “Church teachings” might appear to be widespread in these institutions, but dissent, like assent, is a very protean category in academe. We make a living, whatever our discipline, swimming between these two shoals. But with respect to the Church’s teachings on sexual matters, these are usually regarded as out of date. On doctrinal matters there is less dissent probably because there is less knowledge about or attention paid to them. In theology departments assent or dissent would be more likely because doctrine is part of what members of such departments think about. But even here theologians are likely to be neither wholly on board nor wholly at sea since knowing is usually migratory.
Was I troubled by the dissent I found? Not really since I have my own areas where I believe the Church’s teachings need much more development, developments that theology and many other disciplines could assist in supplying. That having been said, there is a real strength in having an institution with a past that is retrievable and with teachings that can be assented to or dissented from depending on the competence of those choosing to do one or the other.
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“A war is just if there is no alternative, and the resort to arms is legitimate if they represent your last hope.” (Livy cited by Machiavelli)
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Ed Kent [blind copies]
LindaOz: All I can say is that I agree with what you wrote. It will take a generation or two to earn back the trust of many people given the manner in which this scandal has been handled. The church has had to learn that the way they dealt with this matters in the past indicated that something went wrong with the priorities of the Bishops et al. I pray that they have learned their lesson.
Fr. Tim
Father Tim;
I appreciate your honesty and objectivity. I think it is people like you who have the power to turn this around for the church.
Hope you have a wonderful Christmas & New Year.
Linda
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