Blogging from Phoenix: Rumors of abuse, that went on for a couple years, are being circulated in the small desert community of St John’s Arizona, A mostly Catholic community where a boy of 8, is alleged to have killed his Dad and a house mate in cold blood, with a single action 22 caliber rifle. And now the Apache County Arizona Prosecutors office is offering a plea deal in the case.
Full details of the offer were not made public on the Apache County Superior Court’s Web site. But we do know Apache County Attorney Chris Candelaria “tendered a plea offer to the juvenile’s attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court, contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations.†The Prosecutor was apparently responding to a motion by the boy’s defense attorney, attempting to block a tactical move by Apache County officials to drop one of two first-degree murder charges the boy faces for the shooting deaths of his 29-year-old father and Timothy Romans, 39, earlier this month.
Attorney Benjamin Brewer, who represents the accused eight year old, argued in a Nov. 25 filing that prosecutors wanted the charge dismissed, so they could re-file when the boy was older and press the case in adult court. Brewer said Saturday; a plea deal would resolve the case without his client being transferred to adult court, though he declined to provide any additional detail. While considering the offer, the boy’s attorney said he is unsure if his client has the ability to understand the court proceedings. Two scheduled mental health evaluations have yet to be completed. “It is going to be difficult to assess what (the boy) can or cannot enter into,†Brewer remarked “But certainly we’re looking at it.†Juveniles in Arizona can only be held until they turn 18. But Arizona law does permit prosecution of children as adults beginning at age eight.
The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer’s opposition filing, he really wasn’t trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but pressed for dismissal of one charge because the judicial system just isn’t equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder. “It is done to ensure the juvenile and the two murder victims in this case, do not fall through the cracks in the system that might occur if both charges remain in the pending delinquency petition.â€
Candelaria went on to explain, the boy might be found incompetent to stand trial, should that happen. The court would be required by law to order efforts to restore the boy to competency. But if that couldn’t be done within eight months, the judge would be required by law to dismiss the criminal case and bar it from being re-filed. Then the court would be required to initiate civil commitment proceedings, Candelaria wrote. If the boy is found incompetent because of his age, he wouldn’t fit the definition of a mentally disordered person and no treatment would be available. “Such a result would deny the victims and public of any sense of justice for these heinous murders,†Candelaria continued. “It would also deny the juvenile those rehabilitative services he apparently needs, to both deal with why he was capable of committing these murders and to assist him with the grief and remorse that he is probably feeling.â€
Police in St. Johns found the men murdered after the boy ran to a neighbor’s house on the afternoon of Nov. 5. He was questioned after Romans wife raised suspicions about him the next day, and in a videotape released by prosecutors he admits pulling the trigger. Romans worked with the boy’s father and rented a room in his home. Each man was reportedly shot several times with a single-shot, bolt-action .22-caliber rifle. The boy’s grandmother also said to police, if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, it was him. Police reports say the boy told a state Child Protective Services worker his 1,000th spanking would be his last.
The boy is currently being held in a county juvenile facility, although he was allowed a 48-hour furlough to spend Thanksgiving with his mother. The next court hearing is set for Dec. 8.
PSBURTON SAYS, “1000th spanking†and the boy is eight years old, 365 days in a year last I checked, did I mention the child is 8 years old, the parents were divorced a couple years ago, Folks you do the math, I speculate, and yes its rank speculation, The guy who rented a room in a house where a child was being beaten daily if not several times a day might still be alive if he had taken time to call the police 900 or 800 or 500 beatings ago.
That’s my view, though I’m sure if you beat your kids on a daily basis, yours is different.
psburton
16 users commented in " Plea deal offered to 8 year old murder suspect "
Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackWait so that boy wus beat on daily…thats sad…I mean that the child had tuh go that far tuh protect himself…Its to bad…Mang muh childrn are lucky…tells jah whut L-U-C-K-Y
We don’t know what the boy had happen to him. We do know the police interrogated him improperly and that would affect any court case.
Kevin R. Tipple
“By The Light Of The Moon”
The Carpathian Shadows Volume 2
http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages/sf_08/carpathian_shadows2.html
i dont think this boy did this, if you watch the interogation the poliece lead him to say he shot his father, he also said a car had left the residence,imo a 8yr old doesnt have the capacity to prmeditatd murder, i hope the truth comes out so a young boys life is not destroyed!
I have nine kids. No, I don’t beat them every day – not even every other day – and no, I don’t agree with you. Do you honestly believe an 8-year-old has been studiously counting his spankings? “Yup, That was the 1000th. Here goes…”
I have legal custody of four kids in addition to my birth five. All four of the kids by legal custody have fetal alcohol affects and two were born with crack in their blood. They are all very good at lying and appearing believable. One has been diagnosed with attachment disorder as well as oppositional issues. I don’t doubt he’s capable of hurting someone and blaming it on the other person. He is constantly blaming the other eight kids and whoever else gets in his way for everything that goes wrong. If he’s not allowed to go hang out with friends because he had been suspended from school, he will destroy something of mine and then tell others it was my fault for not letting him go out. He will not acknowledge to himself that maybe he shouldn’t have done what he did at school that got the teachers and principal upset. He won’t accept that discipline is a consequence of bad behavior.
When I read this story I did believe he could have done this and then blame it on his father, who might very well have been simply spanking every now and then for doing things that needed discipline. If he was an angry and defiant young man, which his grandma indicates he might have been, he could very well – as his Grandma said – have done this.
And listening to him on the tape – yes, I believe the police are correct.
http://dyinginindiancountry.blogspot.com/
What you don’t know if why the parents were separated. If the mother had been a user of alcohol or drugs while pregnant, this little boy could have some of the very same issues that the four kids I have legal custody of have. And believe me, there are a lot more kids that struggle with this than you know. The public schools are overwhelmed by the problems related to this.
Our pediatrician warned us several years ago that these kids really don’t have a sense of cause and effect, and some really don’t have a conscience. He basiclly told me that we are in for a rough ride and there is little that can be done to help. Yes, we have a social worker working with the most problemic child and counselors have also worked with him. But those are band-aides to serious issues, and for years we tried to do it on our own, not fully understanding the depth of the problems.
This little boy was only 8-years-old. This father might have still been trying to do it on his own, without the help of social services, because he might not have fully understood the depth of the problems either.
http://dyinginindiancountry.blogspot.com/
Despite reminders from social networking managers,
We tend to forget keystroke entry seldom conveys emotion.
I proof posts for basic spelling errors before I publish buts its only after I read them a day later that I see where my attempt at expressing one emotion often reads quite differently.
during personal conversation or video other people pick up facial and body expression, The tone of a voice to discern the speakers intent, not always possible in blogging.
For the record I think the deaths were a tragedy and wish they could have been avoided.
GOD! I hope that this kid does not take the plea bargain. First, there are way too many questions related to the so-called confession. This could be false confession syndrome – and for those who do not believe in such things, google The Central Park Jogger case, Michael Crowe case and Ryan Harris case. The third of these cases involved two boys about the same age as this one who confessed to a horrible rape-murder that they did not commit.
They have referred to this as a “henious crime” – if it was daily abuse then there was no crime at all – merely self defense – and this kid needs to be exonerated in the criminal sense. Sorry about the other guy, but I expect that his presence in the home and failure to protect the child make him guilty in the boy’s eyes. A good case to compare this to is the Cody Posey case – but that kid was much older than this one!
As for the poster here who has bad kids in your home – please give them to someone else who does not have such an evil attitude about children. It sounds like you are overwhelmed and incapable of understanding the difference between an 8 year old and a teenager. The developmental differences are huge – an 8 year old does not manipulate anyone – I have known plenty in my day – some better behaved than others – but adults are quite capable of handling themselves among such tiny little people.
There is a reason why no other civilized nation in the world permits the criminal prosecution of anyone less than 10 – these people simply lack the reasoning to understand and appreciate the nature and consequences of their actions in a way necessary to form criminal intent. They might know how to fire a gun and kill, but that is not the same thing as having a criminal mindset.
This child was taught how to kill other creatures by a brutish man. The man is dead. God will judge him and I expect that he may find the judgment very hot. And if the other dead man knew the kid was being abused and “minded his own business”, he will find things pretty hot as well. As for the step mother and grandparents, parish priest and teachers who apparently knew of the abuse and did nothing – some need to be fired and some need to be prosecuted.
alawyer@4:16 thanks for your post i eas shocked at the person who had bad kids in her home but was unsure how to word it to reply also to psburton@2:32 i dont have x to proof read my stuff for a day then post and my feelings are the same!
Regarding what lisa said, is she admitting to abusing the kids in her home by saing she doesn’t hit them everyday, not even every other day? You should considering what you are saying and if you can’t give these children the deep love they desearve and not hit them then they should not be in your home. You should not be hitting children.
to alaywers response… I 100% agree with you you have made the most sense of anything I’ve read.
Lisa, that is the dumbest thing I ever heard! I assume you didn’t watch the interrogation! He has never been in trouble in school and no reports from home! When you are messed up as a child ALL adults know it… not just one! They would act up in school and everywhere the boy went! Everyone one said he was a normal little boy! And if he was acting out because he was being abused… he still deserves to be loved!! He is a CHILD! People like you make me sick and I feel for the child you have! If you can’t love him you should give him to someone who will!!
Wow! I agree that Lisa is in great need of help with the kids she has to deal with and I even went to her blog to see what fuels her – GET HELP!!!
I have step-children with attachment disorders from a mother who used drugs while pregnant and then couldn’t care for them during the first years of their lives and yes, an 8-year old CAN manipulate! I have been hospitalized twice at the hand of my step-son while he was just barely 12 and his sister just tried to break my arm too. I have never so much as raised my hand against these kids – I have set down boundaries about daily rules but my step-daughter at 11 already used sex to manipulate men and on her own was drinking and experimenting with sex and she and her brothers hid it WELL from their dad before we married and she bragged to my daughter about her behavior. Before having to parent children who are RAD (reactive attachment disordered) I would have given my last breath to say all children are innocent. I now know better. If someone wants to tell me to give these kids to a home where they will “really” be loved – give me your address – they can live with you!!!
Missing the point Wicked Stepmother….RAD is NOT caused by crack or alcohol use. RAD is a condition created by lack of consistent caregivers. In this case, te 8 yr old was NOT Rad…he had always lived with his Dad..he was not in the hospital for long periods of time, nor was he ever in foster care. RAD children ARE scarey..but this boy did not qualify for that dx.
I can see an 8 yr old innocently killing someone only in that they don’t really get “dead” (not typical children, anyway) Thats the age where the smooshed cat in the road is endless fasination….flushing the goldfish is a wonder. This boy had training with a gun. His father had taught him how to use one. I wonder if he just didn’t get carried away with speculation and ended up shooting not once, but twice trying to really get the answer to “do guns kill? ” I wonder if he really didn’t get the difference between HIS actions and teh actions of the gun?
I keep looking for teh results of the mental health report….that would be the end all …was he mentally stable? or was he, as you suggest, RAD/bipolar/borderline personality disordered or some such. My gut instinct is to say “any kid who kills his dad is mentally unstable” but then being a teacher and parent (of SN kids) I also wonder if this was just something that went too far.
I want to know what the two men were doing that caused the kid to think that they were suffering before he shot them. Maybe ( I think ) the kid caught the dad & his friend in an unnatural sex act & he probably never seeing that before thought it was something akin to death, Or associated it with his dad dying & suffering so he shot him to get him out of his misery. Coupled that with a long history of child abuse & this is what you get. The child is probably normal & reacted to something that he saw that was a horrible sight & he wanted to end it. If the child had committed suicide then everyone would have said poor parents. Never blaming them for anything wrong. But there was a documented history of abuse ( the child documented it) so we are quick to judge the child. I think he should be set free.
May be the real mother did it & he is lying to cover it up.
Does anyone know what this child was diagnosed with??? The only DX I have been able to find in the news reports has been psychopathy. However, he does not fit the DSM-IV criteria as he was too young at the time.
I tend to agree with the RAD suggestion as a diagnosis. Definitely PTSD and oppositional defiant disorder/conduct disorder. Maybe more – and I read that there were meds involved. Thoughts???
Additionally, there is nothing in the DSM-IV-TR that precludes RAD as a possible DX for this child. Even having lived with his father since birth, criterion for the condition of RAD is “associated with grossly pathological care that may take the form of persistent disregard of the child’s basic emotional needs for comfort, stimulation and affection…” There is no stipulation stated in the DSM-IV that the child cannot live with the bio parent or must have been spent a specified quantity time in a non-nurturing living environment in order to qualify for this disorder.
Hopefully, this child receives appropriate and on-going psy. help. No matter what, he will need to deal with the fact that his family is no longer living.
Leave A Reply