I am also not espousing Socialism. I am espousing a caring approach to helping those less fortunate Americans with their health care. Socialising health care is a concept that I feel the American people are smart enough to figure out how to achieve. They deserve it, too. To term me as a socialist is way off base. But I understand that’s how you demonize those with my point of view on Health Care. I call it the Fox News business model. It is what it is, I guess.

I am also NOT talking about “making / forcing” people to be more independent. I am talking about the sector of the population not blessed with a trust fund or great job. I am talking about hard working Americans struggling to make ends meet. Working mulitiple jobs to get food on the table.

Hell, George W. Bush wont even adequately fund “no child left behind” so how are we supposed to “get” those folks into school.

Your socialized high speed internet thingy is a typical red herring type approach to this debate by the right. Where in the heck did you come up with high speed internet in a health care debate????

Also, I never charcterized my feelings for Michael Moore as hero status. I still dont understand why his knack for outing criminals and corruption should make you guys so uneasy. I mean, shining a light on typical stories of denied health care isn’t a misrepresentation. Hell, I have a great job, make a great living and have been denied basic health care with the best coverage you can buy! It happens ALL THE TIME. It’s screwed up.

In terms of treating others kindly, why would you support turning sick people away from health care simply because they cant afford it? Baffling. Your argument of folks taking advantage of “the system” is just so damn tired. There are millions who live by the rules, pay their taxes, work their asses off and still struggle to make ends meet and can’t afford health coverage. A small fraction “take advantage” of “the system”. It just tired, man. So tired.

That’s why it really is interesting to get a feel for a moral aspect of this among certain sectors of our population.

Your viewpoint sounds interestingly political. To slam Michael Moore for trying to get a debate going about America’s health care problem (no matter how inflammatory he chooses to be) is absolutely appalling. Are you still smarting from the Fahrenheit 9-11 b’slap he handed out to the Bush administration? Remember that movie where he proposed that the current administration lied to get us into Iraq? Wow, what a few years can do to bolster that claim. Conservatives screamed bloody murder at that proposition. Three years later it is widely accepted as factual even by Republicans. Because it has proven to be correct. Remember Bush saying at a press conference, when asked if Iraq had anything to do with 9-11, that they in fact did not. His exact word was - “NO”. I can send you the quicktime link if you need it. The whole war was based on the premise that they were involved. So, you should lay off the venom and get off Michael Moore’s ass, hell he’s proven correct in 95 percent of everythging he says. Much better than what we’re getting from our current administration. Don’t ya think? Oh, of course you don’t. And you have the facts to back it up.(rolling eyes) I know……….

Sorry I got you guys all riled up about this. Just wanted to give a tiny little voice to those who don’t have a voice in this. Thankfully, those who share my feelings on this are speaking up in greater and greater numbers and it will pay off. Time heals the wounds that noone can see. Time and people speaking up and doing something.

Great debate, though. And, I honestly DO appreciate your opinions about this. I really do. Don’t agree with them, but respect them nonetheless. It’s what I love about this country.

p.s. thank goodness noone watches Kurt Loder anymore! lol!

realtru: None of my readers need you to summarize, because they are (contrary to your beliefs) intelligent folks capable of making their own decisions. I know how annoying that can be for some folks, but that’s just the way things run ’round here. *chuckle*

The argument portion of your … posts boils down to “the Iraq war could pay for UHC,” which is an obvious overstatement on both its face and below. The dollars don’t and won’t add up. While we may agree that Iraq is a problem, I’d hardly characterize it as a waste of time.

Socialism, which is what you are espousing, is the most soul-crushing torture device ever conceived. Prolonged exposure to socialism causes hope, aspiration, inspiration, and innovation to fade. THAT, my friend is a fact. While you hold the position that all Americans should have health care (a point that I don’t disagree with in principle) I hold the position that it is a befouled, distorted sense of altruism that says the government should provide this entitlement.

The concept that humans are rational beings who operate in their own general self-interest is neither new, nor particularly vulnerable. Scarcity is a fact, to paraphrase Lionel Robbins’ 1932 essay. You chose to characterize my position as heartless or money grubbing, but in the long-term, it is more human and humane to help a person be independent.

So since we’re up to speed on the actual argument, I’ll address the rhetoric… The poor tired huddled masses that you want to coddle have been on welfare (socialism) for three generations now. Eventually, the teat that everyone wants to stick in the mouths of the poor is going to run dry because our advantage (land and natural resources) over the old world powers is going to run out. Wouldn’t it be better to get those folks to work and into school so that they can earn their own way? Those liberals you’re talking about are forever bemoaning the self-esteem crisis in the US. Self-esteem comes from doing something worthwhile… as opposed to living off of mommy and daddy, or uncle Sam. It’s not supposed to be free or easy.

For those folks getting bent over by their HMOs, there should actually be some legal recourse -I agree. For the uninsured, I just gotta ask why they are uninsured? I prefer to deal with folks as individuals… if they’re uninsured because they don’t have, can’t hold a job why should they get the same benefits as someone who works like a dog to stay out of the gutter? Hell, if you’re going to make sure everyone gets the same then why don’t we all just stay home and blog all day? The next “Human Right” should be free high-speed wireless access. Let’s make the next one after that socialized sex providers… why should the handsome men get all the girls?

If their job doesn’t provide medical insurance, then there are already systems in place to help the vast majority of those individuals.

The ones I actually feel for are college students… they can’t seek/hold a good job because they are trying to better prepare themselves for work.

Your hero, Moore, used the same tactics he always uses. He found and filmed the most gut-wrenching stories he could and coupled those stories with true but misrepresented factoids and statistics in order to perpetuate the notion that YOU owe ME something. YOU don’t owe me a thing. I’ve worked and clawed my way to where I am and I will continue to take care of myself and my family.

I have never once called the US a Christian nation. Personally I find that notion offensive. And to speak of Christianity as if it were the end-all, be-all in humane treatment of folks is simply preposterous. Any great tradition has a portion of its core that espouses kind treatment of others, and some of them actually follow it.

My point was that we throw so much money away on frivolous things like Iraq, that taxes would not have to be raised much if at all for UHC. All it takes is strong leadership at the top and backbone by the people, neither of which seem to be in much supply these days. Health care could be regulated by the government and there would be plenty of money to go around. And plenty of healthier people, too. Are we saying that AMERICAN’S cant do it? We can’t figure it out and have the best free health care in the world? We really don’t have the backbone to do that??? Are we not smart enough? Not tough enough? Not caring enough? I’m baffled by this question. I was raised to belive, and still do, that Americans will bend over backwrads to help their fellow man. Why aren’t we doing that?

What it costs us to take care of poor people now is costing us a buttload in taxes already. There are always going to be those who take advantage of the system, but it really is a small percentage compared to those who suffer everyday and dont take advantage of the system.

My point with the voting is…. it takes very little time to find people to elect who actually fight for the little guy in America. A few hours a year. Believe me they are out there. Congressmen not presidential candidates. Are we too lazy to put a little effort in who we elect? It’s high time we start speaking with one voice in this country and it’s high time our elected officials begin to feel the heat of not listening to us. Did you know that OVER 70 percent of the American people want us out of Iraq? Officials like G.W Bush don’t listen and don’t care what the American people think or want. It’s those like him who need to be thrown out of office.

Throw those less fortunate to the scrap heap because they dont have the money? And we call ourselves a Christian nation…. shame on us.

Yeah, it’s my opinion but I’m proud to say that there are a majority out there who agree with Christian values in America. Unfortunately, they are the silent majority. (psst, they’re liberal, too! doh!) But they’re waking up! The worm is turning…..it’s in the air. It always feels good to simply do the right thing, even if it takes a few dollars out of your pocket.

To answer your question….we can pay for it. And there’s plenty of money already coming in to do it. No tax hike or anything. If we want it, we can have it. BUT, we have to get it by voting for it and raising our voices and demanding it. When a politician senses that his peeps aren’t happy, it’s amazing what get’s done. But we have to use our votes to do it.

Simple. If we could just put that remote down for a few hours a year, read about a few issues that affect our daily lives, then go out and vote for those things, we’d have them. It’s called Democracy. Those in power don’t want you to do that. It would take money out of their pockets. They like money too much. It’s money over people. Ask David Dalton, he can fill you in on that side of the equation….:-) Sorry David, but you opened yourself up for that one. I have to respect your opinion because I am an American, but it’s wrong. Practically and morally. Deep down you know it, too. You cant deny a sick person health coverage, no matter their financial situation. It’s just not right. We are a better nation than that.

Take profit out of health care.

Here’s an idea, outlaw Health Care lobbyist’s from Washington. Here’s another idea, anyone who wants their health covered by the ridiculous taxes they pay could go out in the next election and vote out whomever doesn’t stand behind universal health care. Maybe we would see more great doctors without a monetary agenda and less of the profiteers we see today. Our tax dollars should be going toward things that WE want, not things the politicians want.

Think about it. Aren’t WE supposed to be in charge here? As in We the people?

Uh, so here’s the other side of that point…. health care should be a human right. Period. Instead of throwing money away in Iraq, bring those kids home and give every American free health care with the money we’d save - we’d have plenty left over, too!. Furthermore, the government is already taking the money away from those who have earned it and are pissing it away on drivel. The least they could do with all that money is spend it on SOMETHING, ANYTHING worthwhile for EVERY American. Isn’t it why we pay so damn much in taxes??? Even poor people have to pay taxes. Have you checked your last tax bill? Moore’s movie focuses mainly on the dwindling middle class in this country. Not bums. The same middle class that every other country in the world has envied until recently. The same middle class that won WWII. The greatest generation. They relied on socialism. Socialism has served our nation pretty damn well in the past.

You’ve had just enough cool-aid to muddle your thought process. You probabaly also think that global warming is a scam. (wouldn’t want to eat into the profit of those oil corporations, huh?)

Neondog: I agree that the system needs a major overhaul, but as we gear up for that overhaul I think we should look to an actual free-market system rather than to tried and failed socialism. I’m happy to carry water for a living, so long as the market controls the wage and so long as my ingenuity and initiative can function to improve my lot in life.

Diane: I need to think about the idea of private “not-for-profit” administrators. However, removing the profit from the pharmaceutical business is almost guaranteed to stifle progress.

realtru: there’s nothing “Pure and Simple” about any of the garbage you’ve spewed and you’ve managed to add nothing to the discussion. There’s nothing unamerican about uninsured, underinsured Americans and there’s definitely nothing unAmerican about a company working to maximize its profits -there wouldn’t be any large-scale healthcare to complain about if not for the healthcare corporations. If fact, the only notion in this whole story that’s UnAmerican is Moore’s tendency toward socialism.

The relevance of “We the people” in context is that it places the Federal Government in the hands of the citizens rather than in those of the individual states. Because we’ve been battered with notions of altruistic social conscience for so many years, people think the government is responsible for everything, and it is not. Medical care is neither free, cheap, or guaranteed.

What you and those like you want is for the government to use its lawful force to take money away from people who have earned it and to hand it to those who have not.

Uninsured Americans and underinsured Americans and the HMO scam are uniquely UN AMERICAN. So, Kurt Loder and those who agree with his opinion on the healthcare subject are UnAmerican. Pure and simple. I like what Moore said last night in an interview…America was founded on “WE the people” not “ME the people”. Very well said.

What this country needs is a good old fashioned revolution. We need to show some balls against anti human rights propogandists like Kurt Loder and his ragged band of merries.

In fact, those people who can afford it (including my own aunt and uncle, who lived in London) have their own private doctors “on retainer” outside of the public health care system in order to get competent health care. And, even depite all that, when my aunt broke her wrists at age 75 and travelled to France 2 weeks later, she was taken off of the blood thinners which had initially been prescribed for her too soon and developed a blood clot which resulted in her untimely and unnecessary death. Needless to say, I would not want to get sick while in Europe.

It would appear that a big part of the problem with so-called “socialized” health care sytems is the fact that doctors and other helath care professionals are underpaid and over-worked, with the systems as a whole being generally underfunded.

That being said, however, it is nonetheless true that we have not only the most expensive, but also the most inefficient, health care delivery system in the world — a bit of an irony, given our almost religious assumption that private industry and the “free market” are always more efficient than government. In fact, the Boston University School of Public Health published what was called the “most comprehensive study of the American health care system ever conducted” a few years ago; its findings are insightful and provide at least some guidance on how to fix the system.

The most significant finding was that almost $.50 out of every dollar spent on health care in this country is “wasted” on excessive prescription drug costs, excessive administrative costs at health insurance companies and shareholder profits. Without debating the relative merits of socialized medicine or government regulation in general, it would nonetheless appear that:

1. We clearly need to empower health care payors, such as Medicare, to negotiate prices with drug companies, rather than prohibit them from doing so (as is the case under the current system of “corporate welfare” instituted by the Bush administration and enacted by the late Republican “kangaroo Congress”);
2. While cost containment will always be an issue,it’s time that health care payors started spending more of their budgets on the coverage they’re paid to provide rather than on armies of beaurocrats (who, incidentally, are typically not medical professionals and therefore are not qualified to make determinations as to what treatments are necessary) designed to find excuses to deny such coverage; and
3. Because of the overriding public intersts at stake, health care payors should not be primarily in the business of showing quarterly profits for their shareholders. In this regard, I note that many of our largest health care insurers and health maintenance organizations are now publicly-held corporations, which are inherently subject to precisely that sort of pressure. Clearly, they should never have been allowed to “go public” and it might be a better alternative altogether if, instead of casting the choice between that of a “private” or government-run system, we examined the possibility of employing “private, not-for-profit” organizations in place of our current, primarily profit-oriented HMOs. In this way, we could still provide sufficient incentive and compensation for health care professionals and providers while ensuring that our health care dollars get spent on their intended purpose, rather than on “wind-falls” for Wall Street.

Loder’s criticisms are mere vagrant opinions…with no visible means of support. He’s a bum holding on to the idea that he can re-invent himself in the style of a neo-con though he has no credibility or credentials other than that he used to be one of those forgettable nobody’s appearing sporadically on MTV.

In fact I heard from a totally reliable source…Fox News…that he and Don Imus are more than just friends, appearing together at fundraisers raising money for Ann Coulter’s breast reduction surgery.

Who knew?