118883

http://www.bloggernews.net/118883

yah this one is soo slow where to move?

I want justice, what i truly want is a confession. but it isn’t coming..I wnt M to step up to the plate and admit what she has done..one way or the other…you can get a different view on a person when there is admission….shes gonna take her chances that it can go 50-50

and what is there to talk with her about? they know what she has done, what is there to chit chat about?

anna you do have a full plate then lol and alot of worries I am sure…lol i worry about mine when shes at that age when shes wanting to go out and about.. I guess I can’t smother her, but I am very guarded with her….

yah that was her moment to tell the world so to speak via cindy writing it down , and alls we got was i forgive her? return her? then back on to talk of how she looks and just silly talk

the more this case goes on I know this woman is going down, although when i read ret attorny saying mistrial i get nervous, for me to think of M someday walking the orlando streets again, just being out and about, is something I just cannot handle thinking about…

I have faith in the pros tho to prove this beyond doubt

This case is helping us all examine and come to grips with our own flaws and shortcomings by allowing us a glimpse at what happens when others do not conquer their own. If that is true and we can use these lessons to help heal our own lives or better or behavior, then this little child left quite a legacy in her short life.

I just loved this post!!!

Hopefully my schedule is bck on track.. Been really tired and alot of holiday prep too.. and up watching cartoons late at night
Hi CIT… anna, mtc, and everyone!!!

Who is calling for the show today? its going to be interesting to hear the mystery guest!!!

It is one of quite a few things he says that I think are extremely revealing. They seem to accidentally or almost involuntarily leak out of him every so often as he is being questioned.

He is more on task when he is sticking to the “scripted” portions of the questions - making sure to give all the details about the gas can incident, the possible accidental drowning, the physical description of Caylee’s last day at home before she disappeared.

He tends to ramble and slip a bit more when open-ended questions are asked, or when he is finished with what seem to be explanations he and Cindy have corroborated and rehearsed.

They both seem to do it, but Cindy recovers quickly and quickly tries to undue any damage. It is really painful to watch.

Nightingale - that is a great application for us to think about - it’s true we are likely to serve on a jury and it’s important that subjective emotions are shelved so that the verdict is reached only by the power of the evidence. I’m afraid I would have to disqualify myself if I were asked to serve on this jury. Half the time I feel like smacking Casey upside the head to shake the truth out of her, even though it would be useless and stupid. I think our frustration with this family and their mendacious manners makes us really restless and sometimes we snap at each other instead of directing our ire where it belongs in this case - the Anthonys.

I agree with you about how inappropriate Rick’s comments to Cindy were, but I also have to say I would not have the patience to deal with her as a sister. I would have been in “time out” half of our childhood dealing with her. I cannot believe she is as adamant and energetic as she is given the fact that she is probably on meds that would tranquilize large zoo animals at this point.

They apparently never asked any follow up questions. They never bothered to figure out why the child was unable to remember or acknowledge the existence of people with whom she allegedly spent many days and nights.

FBI was asking George about all of Casey’s lies and inconsistencies and at one point George brings up Casey’s story about going to Jacksonville to visit Jeff Hopkins (allegedly Casey’s friend) and his (non-existent) 4 year old son Zachary who Casey claimed was a friend of Caylee. Relevant snippets below.

FBI asks: Did you ever hear Caylee ever talk about Zachary?
George answers: [Shakes his head and whispers…] No, no. As a matter of fact we didn’t hear her bring up Zani’s name.
FBI: She never…?
George: Our granddaughter’s a pretty bright little girl.. No she never…
FBI: She never said Zani?
George: No
FBI: Never talked about her nanny?
George: No. Never said anything in that regards whatsoever.
FBI: Did she ever talk about Amy?
George: Not that I can recall.
FBI: Any of the names tht have come up…
George: No.
FBI: Looking back now have you heard Calyee mention any of those names…?
George: No.
FBI: at any point…?
George: No. No.
FBI: in time?
George: No. No. Most definitely no.
FBI: How about any of the other friends of your family, people that she sees on a regular basis over at your house? Are there any…
George: As far as my granddaughter would say…
FBI: Did she talk about uncle Lee?
George: Oh yeah, uncle ‘Eee.’ Oh yeah…
[skip some]
George: and his ‘almost fiance’ Mallory - ‘Mowy.’
FBI: ‘Mowy’
George: Yeah.
FBI: She’d talk about ‘Mowy?’
George: Yeah. Cause whenever we would mention uncle Lee’s name, ‘we’re gonna see uncle Lee today,’ she’d say ‘Mowy? Mowy?’ That was something could acknowledge…
FBI: She could associate people with…?
George: Right.
FBI: other people…?
George: Right.
FBI: and things like that? But you never heard her talk about Zani, or Jeff or Zachary?
George: Or Amy or any of these other friends of hers, no, I never heard my granddaughter say anything like that. Even if you’d ask her ‘did you have a good time with Zani today?’ [long awkward pause] There was never any… brightness or anything like that…
FBI: There was never any recognition on her part…?
George: No.
FBI: as far as you could tell?
George: None whatsoever. No.
FBI: Was there ever any… Did you ever hear Casey talk about these people while Caylee was there?
George: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean she would just bring Zani’s name up [snaps fingers] just like that. You know, ‘we were at Zani’s house for such and such’ or ‘we met up with Amy’ or whoever it might be, you know.
[skip some]
George: For the age she is, I think she [Caylee] is a pretty bright little girl. But she never ever… Whenever you would bring up any of these names, you know, ‘did you see Amy today?’ or ‘how’s Zach?’ [pauses and shakes head]
FBI: No reaction?
George: There was never any reaction, at all. No.
FBI: When you asked her ‘how’s uncle Lee?’
George: Oh yeah, I mean she’ll… ‘Did you see uncle Lee today?’ and she’ll say ‘uncle Eee, Mowy.’ Yeah, always, oh yeah it clicks right there. That was definitely something.

MMT’s 5:16 pm post: “Hmmmm “regardubg” new word. Can anyone tell me what it means?”

Certainly!

Regardubg – def: refererence to a bug so twisted he’s barely recognizable!

TO ALL: GREAT CONTRIBUTIONS TO BLOG TODAY!!!

I think this stuff (neuroscience) is really going to lead to some amazing advances in medicine and mental health (better diagnosis and treatment for autism, OCD, Alzheimer’s, etc.) and probably also technology (imagine ‘thought-to-text’ software applications, etc.).

Maybe one day we’ll be able to strap people like Casey down on a table, and artificially induce the feeling of empathy by stimulating certain parts of her brain. She’d crack pretty quickly under the pressure of real remorse for what she’s done not just to Caylee but also her family and everyone else around her.

I hope she does have an epiphany or some level of a “wake up call” but even then I would not want to hear a word out of her mouth before she finished 10 or more years of psychotherapy herself. She is not in a position to be an advocate of picking up the garbage (IMO). I mean it. She has so much to learn herself and so much to make up for (just counting from July 15 - nevermind the years before) that I pray she seeks a very quiet (I know -impossible for her) and retiring existence after this. Personally I wouldn’t be able to come out from under the bed I’d be so ashamed.

Some of the things she said in front of that girl to her friends, and possibly in front of Casey’s own daughter, just seem inexcusably cruel, even if they were true. Cindy and a sociopath were just a lethal combination.

One one study, patients were put into fMRI machine to measure brain activity real-time, and they were shown images of people in pain, laughing, crying, etc. Researchers discovered that the same parts of the brain that are responsible for producing the feeling of sadness (for example) become active when you look at someone who seems sad; the same parts of the brain that are responsible for producing the feeling of fear become activated when you see someone who seems frightened.

They call this the ‘mirror neuron system’ because in effect the brain is mirroring the emotions and feelings that we perceive in others. Hence the feeling of empathy. At least that’s what happens in a ‘normal’ brain.

In sociopaths, I would expect that there is some kind of deficiency in this ‘mirror neuron system.’ Something that prevents the normal response or something which distorts or dampens it…

I would love to see Casey and many of these other sociopaths (the Petersons, Van der sloot, etc.) in the lab!

I doubt that Cindy will ever have an epiphany about this and go on to be any kind of advocate, but maybe this case will inspire others who have lived through something similar or some professional will write a book drawing attention to the problem using this as a case study, and the notoriety the media has bestowed will widen the audience. I sure hope it sends a message to grandparents everywhere that you just can’t ignore the danger signs and expect that bad things won’t happen.

To add one anecdote to Skippys at 7:30 - that C & G were putting down M as a mother even in the jail visit - M was talking about what she fed Caylee and said “I wouldn’t give her bagels and (something I don’t remember)” and her mother immediately said indignantly, “She likes bagels!” That brought m up short. Something she didn’t know about her own daughter. It put her in a bad light.

Behavior that horrifies us when seen in individuals is sometimes taken for granted in larger entities. Enron, AIG, the list goes on.
Or even excused by society if it’s in the interest of a nation or culture. We’re getting better at recognizing that, but still have a ways to go I guess.

I am just hoping that science can step in someday and reduce all this localized damage by identifying the cause and creating a cure so that we don’t have to simply go on behavioral control for people. It would sure make life easier for both types of people.

It has been a pleasure reading your insights and experience - lots of good synergy today. I’m grateful!

At one point Casey also refers to the fact that George and Cindy were good grandparents - she specifically used the past tense and then she corrected herself and used the present tense instead.

They all talk so much, like nonstop motor-mouths and they all accidentally let little truths slip through between all the lies.

I am not mature enough to have the same sympathy for sociopaths as I have for other disabilities - I am just not that advanced yet.

I know that we will probably get to be more enlightened about the condition as science helps us know more. Right now it’s easier to take something we don’t understand and just say it’s evil. Years ago, many other mental conditions or illnesses were not seen as madness but possession by spirits or the wrath of God. Thank goodness we are working toward more compassion in learning about all of these things - I can’t help but believe that is what the best part of most religions is about, because if our creator didn’t have that level of compassion in forgiving our shortcomings, there are very few of us who would be around.

It’s often more of a “there but for the grace of God” regardless of how self-righteous or revolted we tend to feel. it’s easy to get a false sense of security because our own shortcomings seem so relatively benign compared with the things we see here.

This case makes me wake up every day and be grateful for the fact I have normal feelings. I cannot imagine how empty and claustrophobic existence would be without the beautiful detail that feeling both the painful and pleasurable experiences emotions have etched on my life.

novalis… you word things so beautifully! It’s as if you touch the most sad and tragic people with a gentle hand.

val… just from what you said I can tell that you’ve been a big part of your sister’s life and care deeply for all she has done. I’m sure that you’re as giving and kind as she.

It’s almost like they see everyone else as a robot - simply a tool to be used to get their needs met. What is sad is that they are the emotional robots, all hardware and no heart, and everyone around them is “real”.

The fact that she might not have craved love itself is that it was an emotion she could neither herself feel nor recognize as real - she could only relate to the superficial benefits it might bring when felt by others.

I also tend to think there is a huge emotional disconnect that spreads across the entire family. It may not have been a lethal combination with the others, but it sure was when she was added to the equation.

The more we can understand others the more we understand ourselves or vice versa, and that is always a good thing even if it is painful. Sometimes the most painful lessons are the most precious because they are so real and have such visceral impact. The easy ones seem a bit more ephemeral.

This case is helping us all examine and come to grips with our own flaws and shortcomings by allowing us a glimpse at what happens when others do not conquer their own. If that is true and we can use these lessons to help heal our own lives or better or behavior, then this little child left quite a legacy in her short life.

Val - it’s interesting - I think that all parents’ ultimate goal is to make sure our children can interact in healthy ways in society, we just hope we have children that can process things normally and eventually rely on empathy and intrinsic emotions to motivate them instead of learned behavior.

But ultimately, even if children cannot “feel” the same way as most of us do, they need to be taught they are responsible for their behavior and the consquences. That must have been very challenging but rewarding work for your sister.

I believe that Cindy has always and unknowingly given Casey ideas by providing answers instead of asking open-ended questions when something was wrong. Then Casey would use them in any way they fit her life style, whether it was go gain attention or sympathy from her friends or avoid getting in to trouble.

Cindy would use leading questions during the jailhouse visits, saying things like “Is someone threatening you?” So, I imagine that when Casey had Caylee and was acting indifferent to the baby, instead of asking her exactly what was upsetting her she was probably playing the guessing game. Such as “Are you angry because they handed Caylee to me first.” Casey then used those ideas to her benefit!

I’m sure when Casey lied about anything, while growing up, Cindy again gave her the answers and then accepted it as the truth.

It’s so complicated… so dysfunctional… but yet, how is a parent to know that they are doing the wrong thing until it’s too late?

But this case is a lesson to parents everywhere that is it more important to get these kinds of people help while they are children because it’s not something they outgrow but just get better at.

And adults dealing with other adults like this - well it reminds me of addiction. Sometimes you cannot help an addict, they have to want to help themselves - you just have to limit your exposure or cut them off completely and refuse to let their unhealthy and destructive impulses interfere with your life. Engaging with them on any level is a no-win situation.

Wow. Excellent insight Novalis, CIT and MMT!
(and others!)

I have to look at the tapes again with new eyes - a different perspective. And re-think some things although as you said a lot of the details we discuss, that we’d like to know more about, will not come up at trial and it’s very likely we’ll never know.

About C & G’s idea of her job situation. I remember G talking with either the FBI or police saying that M had deposited $4,400 in her mother’s bank account fraudulently. She’d forged the deposit! Her mother wrote the mortgage check on it and it bounced and caused them all kinds of trouble. But he said M told them it was all the paychecks Universal owed her (I’m pretty sure he said Universal). So number one it’s interesting that she was supposed to pay her parents (put money in their account), #2 that she forged the deposit and # 3 that it was supposed to be pay from work. I don’t remember if he said when that happened.
Also it creeped me out in the jail call video that M said she and Caylee were so alike - that Caylee was almost her size (NOT!) and “our little bodies” or something like that (NOT!) Acting more like a sis to Caylee. Very creepy.
And I remember C saying to FBI I believe that she ran to the kitchen to get her address book to show zanny’s address to LE (I guess it was July 15 or 16 not sure) so supposedly she had the address.
I wonder if M used C’s supposed dislike of hispanics as a way to distance C from zanny initially. If any of that is true, then C might have considered zanny “hired help” and not someone she’d jump for the opportunity to have in her home. It’s only later (like during jail visit) that they seem to be finding out more about her I believe.

You are exactly right novalis in your description..it is truly like walking on eggshells. You don’t know what to do because you want to nip it in the bud, but by speaking out against the way they act they wind up controlling you through the punishment phase, or being nasty for a long time. So it makes it extremely hard to deal with people like this. They know they have a power in their control by rebelling out against others because it becomes tiring and weary and most people don’t wish to deal with their wrath. But that enabling starts at a young age through the parents and continues on into adulthood. Most parents will continue to make excuses for them and cover throughout their lifetime. I know this first hand unfortunately and sometimes you just wish to scream at them…but trust me it is futile..they never see the error of their ways. It is natural to them.

As long as she is treated like a spoiled little princess and the center of attention, she will respond. When Cindy deviates from that approach, or she is asked to behave like an adult, she is petulant and uncooperative or downright hostile. I don’t think she was jealous that Caylee was put into her mother’s arms first because it reduced her standing as a mother, I think she was resentful that Caylee was the new object of her mother’s affection.

She reminded me of how a 3 year old acts when they get a new brother or sister - immature sibling rivalry from the baby of the family. It’s understandable in a 3 year old but ugly and pathetic in a 19 year old.

She reminds me of Rhoda Penmark in The Bad Seed. I think she would have killed a younger sister or brother if Cindy and George had had any more children.

Narcissists and other personality disorders are so hard to deal with - if you walk on eggshells and coddle them you run the risk of becoming enablers. If you confont them, you run the equal risk of their wrath, which is what I’m sure Cindy now realizes happened the night of June 15th. Scary!