Comments on: Book Review: THE SOUL OF A HORSE; Life Lessons from the Herd, by Joe Camp with a foreword by Monty Roberts http://www.bloggernews.net/115268 High-quality English language analysis and editorial writing on the news. Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:38:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: taylor http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-335526 taylor Tue, 13 May 2008 19:58:48 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-335526 I loved this book! It was a delight and I think that Joe Camp is a wonderful man and excellent horseman. This book offers more than insights on horesmanship, it offers insight on life. I loved this book! It was a delight and I think that Joe Camp is a wonderful man and excellent horseman. This book offers more than insights on horesmanship, it offers insight on life.

]]> By: ihavequestions http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-317991 ihavequestions Sat, 03 May 2008 06:08:38 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-317991 No, ihavequestions is not one of the authors of 'Horse Whispers & Lies.' I can understand how someone might mistake some of the methods demonstrated in the senior Roberts' book as 'inhumane.' It is my belief that the only way to build a 'relationship' with an animal (or human) is to spend lots of quality time with the animal (or human). No, ihavequestions is not one of the authors of ‘Horse Whispers & Lies.’

I can understand how someone might mistake some of the methods demonstrated in the senior Roberts’ book as ‘inhumane.’

It is my belief that the only way to build a ‘relationship’ with an animal (or human) is to spend lots of quality time with the animal (or human).

]]> By: SkeetersMa http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-313990 SkeetersMa Thu, 01 May 2008 01:07:17 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-313990 Oh, had a chance to click on ihavequestions profile and it's Monty's aunt. While we've never met her, I have had the opportunity to view a book authored by Monty's abusive father. The manner in which he suggests that a horse be tied with one leg up for hours/days to "break it" answers all the questions I might have regarding who is telling the truth. As in "The Soul of a Horse" keep digging until you find the answers that have support in logic and reason and always question everyone's motives. Oh, had a chance to click on ihavequestions profile and it’s Monty’s aunt. While we’ve never met her, I have had the opportunity to view a book authored by Monty’s abusive father. The manner in which he suggests that a horse be tied with one leg up for hours/days to “break it” answers all the questions I might have regarding who is telling the truth. As in “The Soul of a Horse” keep digging until you find the answers that have support in logic and reason and always question everyone’s motives.

]]> By: Maggie http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-313086 Maggie Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:24:29 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-313086 I'm not a horse person, and although the book is technically about horses, the quest that the Camps embarked on in the book seemed to be much more of a metaphor for how we should all live our lives. If something doesn't make sense, keep digging until you find the answer. While the book didn't morph me into a horse person, I will never look at horses the same way, and I will certainly question the people who have them and claim to love them while keeping them in a stall with shoes on. I was struck by the swing of emotions that the book pulled out of me. One minute I was laughing at Kathleen's taking on something she was so fearful of, but being so quiet about it thereby getting in some sticky situations, then boo hoo-ing, then getting chills right along with Joe, then getting a bit angry. LIfe Lessons From the Herd is a perfect subtitle! I’m not a horse person, and although the book is technically about horses, the quest that the Camps embarked on in the book seemed to be much more of a metaphor for how we should all live our lives. If something doesn’t make sense, keep digging until you find the answer. While the book didn’t morph me into a horse person, I will never look at horses the same way, and I will certainly question the people who have them and claim to love them while keeping them in a stall with shoes on.

I was struck by the swing of emotions that the book pulled out of me. One minute I was laughing at Kathleen’s taking on something she was so fearful of, but being so quiet about it thereby getting in some sticky situations, then boo hoo-ing, then getting chills right along with Joe, then getting a bit angry. LIfe Lessons From the Herd is a perfect subtitle!

]]> By: Nancy http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-310187 Nancy Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:32:08 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-310187 It seems to me that both SkeetersMa and ihavequestions are about the same thing: building a relationship with animals. It also seems that how ever that is done without violence is a good thing. But, as a student of Join-Up, I must correct Ihave's interpretation of how Join Up works. After being presented with the human predator, and after doing what a horse does by instinct (run for about .25 mile), the horse then moves from the flight reaction to begin to assess whether the human is really the predator the horse originally perceived. Once the horse realizes that the human who could have surely caught the horse by then didn't the horse moves to the person. Not vice versa. The horse chooses to come in. This is described beautifully in Joe's book. I had the good fortune to hear Joe speak on Saturday via the LA Times Book Fest and it was so moving when he got all choked up reading about his Join Up with Cash, the horse on the cover of the book. Not a dry eye in the place! It seems to me that both SkeetersMa and ihavequestions are about the same thing: building a relationship with animals. It also seems that how ever that is done without violence is a good thing. But, as a student of Join-Up, I must correct Ihave’s interpretation of how Join Up works. After being presented with the human predator, and after doing what a horse does by instinct (run for about .25 mile), the horse then moves from the flight reaction to begin to assess whether the human is really the predator the horse originally perceived. Once the horse realizes that the human who could have surely caught the horse by then didn’t the horse moves to the person. Not vice versa. The horse chooses to come in.

This is described beautifully in Joe’s book. I had the good fortune to hear Joe speak on Saturday via the LA Times Book Fest and it was so moving when he got all choked up reading about his Join Up with Cash, the horse on the cover of the book. Not a dry eye in the place!

]]> By: ihavequestions http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-307795 ihavequestions Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:19:42 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-307795 > JM2C,but those who advocate Clicker training obviate any belief that we, as homosapieans, can have a relationship with any other living thing…it assumes a superiority that we should never be so arrogant to claim. > If you don't want it, I'll claim that 'superiority', LOL. Anytime a human interjects themselves into the life of an animal in any role other than that of mere observer, there are issues of 'superiority' to some degree. Is 'superiority' necessarily a bad thing? Our 'superiority' has given us the means with which to develop ways of feeding (agriculture) and caring (veterinary medicine) for the horse. Isn't it fine that we are inclined to devote energy towards the care and appreciation of our fellow animals? Marker (aka 'clicker') training is simply a way to enhance the horse's ability to communicate with us. It is based on winning the horse's willing participation. By contrast, some would argue that the 'join up' procedure is coercive. The horse doesn't 'join up' because he loves us or because he receives a positive reward for accepting our presence. He becomes winded and tired, but is allowed to rest when he becomes too tired to attempt to avoid our presence. Marker training as we know it today was first developed as a means of training dolphins. It is unfeasible to train dolphins with coercive methods; the trainer must win their willing participation. Disclaimer: Just my opinion. >
JM2C,but those who advocate Clicker training obviate any belief that we, as homosapieans, can have a relationship with any other living thing…it assumes a superiority that we should never be so arrogant to claim.
>

If you don’t want it, I’ll claim that ’superiority’, LOL. Anytime a human interjects themselves into the life of an animal in any role other than that of mere observer, there are issues of ’superiority’ to some degree. Is ’superiority’ necessarily a bad thing? Our ’superiority’ has given us the means with which to develop ways of feeding (agriculture) and caring (veterinary medicine) for the horse. Isn’t it fine that we are inclined to devote energy towards the care and appreciation of our fellow animals?

Marker (aka ‘clicker’) training is simply a way to enhance the horse’s ability to communicate with us. It is based on winning the horse’s willing participation.

By contrast, some would argue that the ‘join up’ procedure is coercive. The horse doesn’t ‘join up’ because he loves us or because he receives a positive reward for accepting our presence. He becomes winded and tired, but is allowed to rest when he becomes too tired to attempt to avoid our presence.

Marker training as we know it today was first developed as a means of training dolphins. It is unfeasible to train dolphins with coercive methods; the trainer must win their willing participation.

Disclaimer: Just my opinion.

]]> By: Nancy http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-306842 Nancy Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:55:47 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-306842 I've read an advanced copy of The Soul of a Horse and I must say it's much more than a "horse" book. It's really about a man's journey in learning to communicate, and how to stretch beyond the "traditional" thinking of ANY subject. Although I enjoyed Marley & Me, I LOVED The Soul of a Horse because it was so much deeper, thoughtful and though provoking. While I rode horses a couple of times as a child, since I usually ended up on the ground, I don't anticipate getting a horse or riding at this age. However, I will never look at horses the same way. I will notice if they have shoes on and will mention the book to the owner. When we gather to watch the Derby, I will mention the book to our group. I truly hope that this book is read by many so that we can feel proud of how we care for all creatures. I’ve read an advanced copy of The Soul of a Horse and I must say it’s much more than a “horse” book. It’s really about a man’s journey in learning to communicate, and how to stretch beyond the “traditional” thinking of ANY subject. Although I enjoyed Marley & Me, I LOVED The Soul of a Horse because it was so much deeper, thoughtful and though provoking.

While I rode horses a couple of times as a child, since I usually ended up on the ground, I don’t anticipate getting a horse or riding at this age. However, I will never look at horses the same way. I will notice if they have shoes on and will mention the book to the owner. When we gather to watch the Derby, I will mention the book to our group. I truly hope that this book is read by many so that we can feel proud of how we care for all creatures.

]]> By: SkeetersMa http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-306359 SkeetersMa Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:27:10 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-306359 Holy Schmoly, we indeed honor Monty with his ingenuity, study, and deep love for horses but I can't find one reference where Joe called Monty a messiah...for good reason. We, like Monty are merely trying to honor what the good Lord has given us. And so great that we agree that horse training can be "understood and improved and refined! " That is the best review of Joe's book that I've read. You must have already received a copy because truly that IS the message. Well I love this dialogue, and will be completely honest because the "clicker training" comment threw me for a loop. JM2C,but those who advocate Clicker training obviate any belief that we, as homosapieans, can have a relationship with any other living thing...it assumes a superiority that we should never be so arrogant to claim. Holy Schmoly, we indeed honor Monty with his ingenuity, study, and deep love for horses but I can’t find one reference where Joe called Monty a messiah…for good reason. We, like Monty are merely trying to honor what the good Lord has given us.

And so great that we agree that horse training can be “understood and improved and refined! ” That is the best review of Joe’s book that I’ve read. You must have already received a copy because truly that IS the message.

Well I love this dialogue, and will be completely honest because the “clicker training” comment threw me for a loop. JM2C,but those who advocate Clicker training obviate any belief that we, as homosapieans, can have a relationship with any other living thing…it assumes a superiority that we should never be so arrogant to claim.

]]> By: ihavequestions http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-305792 ihavequestions Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:10:23 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-305792 I acknowledge that people have found Roberts' advice to be helpful. I acknowledge that Roberts' skill and knowledge of horse training is tremendous. However, I do not consider him to be a messiah. Check out the work done by Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. Read Podhajsky and Xenophon. Furthermore, when one examines the science of animal training, one realizes that horse training can be understood better and improved and refined. Take a look at 'clicker training' (more accurately called 'marker training'), for example. I acknowledge that people have found Roberts’ advice to be helpful. I acknowledge that Roberts’ skill and knowledge of horse training is tremendous. However, I do not consider him to be a messiah.

Check out the work done by Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. Read Podhajsky and Xenophon.

Furthermore, when one examines the science of animal training, one realizes that horse training can be understood better and improved and refined.

Take a look at ‘clicker training’ (more accurately called ‘marker training’), for example.

]]> By: SkeetersMa http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-305312 SkeetersMa Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:11:36 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-305312 So interesting of a comment. In the 80's, the Enquirer reported that Benji the canine superstar died of AIDS. Gimme a break; Monty's mission is to stop people from beating the living krap out of horses to "break" them and his gentle methods work. Whether some green eyed horseman can crawl inside of the brain and heart of a horse to say what the horse is thinking is irrelevant; Monty's methods work, they're kind, and they foster a true relationship with any breathing thing...just learn to speak their language. Oh yeah, and we too are not so "with him" as far as Cesar's methods if that is in any way relevant. I am Kathleen, as in the Kathleen in Joe's book. I know Monty (after we acquired horses). I was scared to death of horses only moments ago and actually still have my moments of concern. Last December, I loaded an unknown horse that three people were pushing pulling and whipping with about 15 minutes of "make-shift" join up. Who can complain about that? So interesting of a comment. In the 80’s, the Enquirer reported that Benji the canine superstar died of AIDS. Gimme a break; Monty’s mission is to stop people from beating the living krap out of horses to “break” them and his gentle methods work. Whether some green eyed horseman can crawl inside of the brain and heart of a horse to say what the horse is thinking is irrelevant; Monty’s methods work, they’re kind, and they foster a true relationship with any breathing thing…just learn to speak their language. Oh yeah, and we too are not so “with him” as far as Cesar’s methods if that is in any way relevant.

I am Kathleen, as in the Kathleen in Joe’s book. I know Monty (after we acquired horses). I was scared to death of horses only moments ago and actually still have my moments of concern. Last December, I loaded an unknown horse that three people were pushing pulling and whipping with about 15 minutes of “make-shift” join up. Who can complain about that?

]]> By: ihavequestions http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-303721 ihavequestions Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:59:19 +0000 http://www.bloggernews.net/115268#comment-303721 I would be reluctant to give Monty Roberts too much credit, based on what I've read of his character and history. I've also had several conversations with a gentleman whom I consider to be a Zen Master of animal training, Richard 'Army' Maguire. Maguire explained to me that what Roberts claims is happening during his horse training sessions and what is really happening, from a scientific point of view, are quite different. Maguire is also a critic of Cesar Milan's methods. For more information: 'Horse Whispers & Lies' at www.horsewhispersandlies.com; the Feb. 1999 issue of Horse & Rider magazine's article, 'Horse Whispers or Horse Feathers?'; San Francisco Examiner Article: 'BIOGRAPHY CALLED UNBRIDLED FICTION' January 11, 1997; "Horse of a Different Color" by John Skow & James Willwerth, Time Magazine Dec. 14, 1998; "Now! Read the True (More or Less) Story!" Tuesday, February 24, 1998 The New York Times; and "A Peddler of Court Gossip May Pay the Piper" by Jonathon Turley. I would be reluctant to give Monty Roberts too much credit, based on what I’ve read of his character and history. I’ve also had several conversations with a gentleman whom I consider to be a Zen Master of animal training, Richard ‘Army’ Maguire. Maguire explained to me that what Roberts claims is happening during his horse training sessions and what is really happening, from a scientific point of view, are quite different. Maguire is also a critic of Cesar Milan’s methods.

For more information:
‘Horse Whispers & Lies’ at http://www.horsewhispersandlies.com; the Feb. 1999 issue of Horse & Rider magazine’s article, ‘Horse Whispers or Horse Feathers?’; San Francisco Examiner Article: ‘BIOGRAPHY CALLED UNBRIDLED FICTION’ January 11, 1997; “Horse of a Different Color” by John Skow & James Willwerth, Time Magazine Dec. 14, 1998; “Now! Read the True (More or Less) Story!” Tuesday, February 24, 1998 The New York Times; and “A Peddler of Court Gossip May Pay the Piper” by Jonathon Turley.

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